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DSBed move 10/4/13 DSB 3/7/13 Establishing a working deep sand bed
- 01/27/2013
Final Questions on Remote DSB Plan for a
220 Gallon Reef Tank 4/15/12
High nitrate reduction... but so
quickly??/Nitrate Control/DSBs 12/13/11 RDSB Advice - Calfo's Technique
11/3/11 FOWLR and DSB (application/efficacy) --
10/26/11 DSB conversion 10/5/11 Sand Is So Sandy All The Time
<?>/Deep Sand Beds 1/24/11 DSB, Calcium and Alkalinity
12/13/10 Deep Sand Bed Setup 9/20/10 Sand Beds, 3/2/10 Improving Nano tank sump/DSB
2/26/10 Sand questions 11/11/08 Greetings from Singapore! <Hello! Jessy here. Greetings from southern California!> Got a quick question for u. I have a 11 month old 3ft, 60gal, FOWLR tank with some grade '0' sand(around 1" deep). Since my wavemaker pump keep pushing my sand away to the side(leaving a huge gap in the middle of my tank), I decided to add more grade '0' sand to make it deeper(around 4" deep). Will it be causing any problem to my Livestock/Tank? <Adding new sand shouldn't cause any issues to your livestock, if it was new sand. You could possibly have a small ammonia spike if there was anything in the sand that would die off, but generally speaking you should be safe. As a precaution I'd keep an eye on your levels and water changes are always a great way to prevent any unforeseen disaster.> Thanks, Andrew Munday <Regards, Jessy>
RDSB Water Flow Questions 12/21/2007 WWM Crew, I just finally finished reading the many pages of information on deep sand beds and nitrate reducing methods. I found it to be an excellent discussion and a wealth of information. However, I have a question that remains unanswered... For background, I have a new 210G BB SPS dominated tank with a 60G sump, and I'm using a 75G AGA (48" x 18") for a RDSB with 6" of sugar size sand. The RDSB is not lighted. I have 150# of Tonga LR in the main display. I'm using a Reeflo 250 Orca as my skimmer and I typically run carbon passively in my sump. Flow through the entire system is high with detritus staying in suspension and being removed via a filter sock in the sump. My main focus/desire for the RDSB is for nitrate reduction followed by an increase in bio-diversity of the overall system. I'm interested in opinions on both (1) overall flow through my RDSB as plumbed into my total system (currently I'm moving less than 200G/hour through the RDSB tank with the returns directed at the top of the tank) <This sounds good to me. I'm sure opinions vary on this, but I think as long as your moving about as much water in an hour as you have in the main tank, you're probably good. Of course, to a point, more is probably better.> and (2) flow within the RDSB, not only in volume, but with respect to how, where, and by what means (currently I have no additional flow other than the main returns). <Water flow actually THROUGH the DSB is largely dependent on the benthic life of the sandbed. You want to have a lot of worms, micro-crustaceans, etc. living in the sand to turn the sand grains around. This is what moves water down and through the sand.> Specifically, I'm interested in opinions on flow techniques at the sand/ water interface level. <If you want to add more water flow above the sand bed, you can just add a powerhead. If you don't think you can do this without creating a sand storm, you could try piling some rocks in one corner and pointing the powerhead at the rocks from the other side of the tank.> Thanks in advance and thanks for maintaining this excellent resource. Tony <De nada, Sara M.> Exciting new question... same old DSB questions -- 09/13/07 Hello.. (sorry for subject line, just trying to inject some excitement as I know you must get flooded with the same questions) Compliments on a great site, so much information, and it seems, a complete information overload for my brain. My husband and I have been in this hobby for 9 months and have fallen in love with it to such a degree that we have just upgraded from a 42 gallon (UK) to a 130 gallon. (30 gallon sump) inhabitants will be fish (yep!) LR, inverts. The old tank had 1/2 inch crushed coral sand this has now gone. We fully intended to go with a DSB for this new tank as we were under the impression this is the best way to go, our LFS (bless them) said not to, as it can release sulphur back into the system which will kill all livestock? <Ugh... this is just not true.> Obviously we want to set this tank up right, from the start. In your humble opinion, should we go for a DSB in the main tank (4 + inches of aragonite, live sand or normal?) <Sand beds are great for keeping nitrates low and adding biodiversity to the tank. Fine aragonite is preferred, but pure silicate sand-box or masonry sand will do just fine. But whatever type of sand you end up getting, you'll need to "seed" it with live sand and live rock. Please start here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/deepsandbeds.htm and try here: http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-06/rs/feature/index.php and do a search on WWM and/or Google for deep sand beds. There's a whole lot out there written on this topic.> should we also have a DSB in the sump? <If you have one in the display, you don't need one in the sump. But it's up to you.> or shall we go with Miracle mud? <Miracle mud is not necessarily any better than any other type of fine, live sand.> I assume we would need sand sifters of some description as well. <You need worms and other critters, but not sand sifter stars (or other such echinoderms which can actually destroy sand beds). Again... do some research. There's a lot out there to read.> As there is so much information, pro's and con's, it can be confusing and I guess it's personal taste but any advice would be greatly received. <Do a lot of reading. This is the only real advice I can give you here. Don't just go by what the LFS tells you (and that applies to just about everything).> Thank you in advance, Nicola <De nada, Sara M.> New Tank Question: DSB and Water Movement 7/30/07 Hi James, How is everything? Hope everything is well. <Hi Jon, everything fine here.> Before anything else, I am happy to tell you about the Fromia millepora (red sea star) that I have inquired about. I was so happy when I finally moved him from my quarantine tank to the display tank. He immediately went around and took some algae I left for him in the front of the glass. He's been all over the tank already and for two days now seems doing just fine. I love him and did add diversity in the tank. <Good to hear.> James, you have seen pictures of my tank and it is indeed very healthy as you have mentioned. I probably have over 50 baby snails by now crawling about the tank thanks the initial 10 Cerith snails that kept laying eggs. Moreover, just tonight, I believe I saw the eggs of my 2 clown fish. I feel it is their egg as they were protecting it unlike the eggs laid by my Cerith snails that they very much like to nip. Oh boy, it's been truly a wonderful experience for me. Love every minute of it. <Can be a rewarding hobby.> The sponge that has grown at the back of my LR is now protruding upwards and has covered the top of this rock and is exposed to total light. It is quite interesting to note that the color on this one however is orange yellow. At its current growth rate, I may not have room for new corals at all. As you know James, this is my 1st venture in having an aquarium and a SW tank at that. I really could have not done it with your help. <Glad to be of assistance.> Old tank questions (60 gal): 1st. I have been setting my eye on some Holothuria cucumbers (particularly the tiger tail). I prefer them over the sand sifting star (which I read devours everything in the sand). <Anything dead, yes.> The thing is for weeks now, since I last wrote you, I have wanted to add more diversity for my current tank. I am not satisfied yet with the research I have done on it so far. There is simply too much variability for me to make any realistic generalizations about the risk of this specific sea cucumber. The best generalization that I can make is that for most deposit-feeding sand cucumbers the risk of a tank wipe-out is quite low and considering the added benefit plus bio-diversity in my tank, I am beginning to feel it is worth a try. Am I right in thinking this? (My first question). Secondly, if I am to put it 1st in my quarantine tank for 1 month, how am I to feed it? Lastly, how do one properly acclimate this? Is it the same as your advice to me as the red sea star? <Jon, I'd stay away from Cukes, they can be more trouble than they are worth. Read here if you haven't already. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/seacukes.htm The sand sifting starfish would be a much better choice. Keep in mind, these guys should be fed unless you have a well established sand bed. I feed mine with a syringe (no needle attached). I take the syringe and draw up a few bloodworms and inject them under the starfish. Has been working well so far. They will also eat dried Nori.> 2nd. I know Phosphate less 0.03 concentrations is a good value for reef aquaria. Last week, I purchased a Red Sea P04 test kit and for the 1st time have tested P04 concentration in my tank and found out that I have about 0.1 ppm PO4 level. <More than likely you are just reading the low end of the scale and is not indicative of the actual level. Phosphates are generally absorbed in the system very quickly.> I am not having hair algae nor some red slime outbreak or anything but want to make sure I won't have them at all (I do have some hair algae but is controlled in just one spot and comes and goes). I have a refugium with lots of Chaetomorpha algae that I trim from time to time which I believe helps (thanks to your advice early on). Does putting some ROWAphos or PhosBan in a poly filter bag and hang this by the sump do the trick? Or is it really necessary to get a Phosphate reactor as some other guys in other websites seems to strongly suggest for some fluidize action. I ask because everything seems fine'¦'Now' but I don't know why I keep worrying about something that has not happened yet. Also I feel I don't really want an absolute zero PO4 at all because my current tank seems to be thriving (I have maiden's hair and shaving bush plants in the main display tank and some spaghetti algae in the refugium). <I'd leave well enough alone, but if I decided to use a product, it would be Rowaphos.> New Tank (2009 7'x3.5x2' Upgrade tank) 1st question. Given the size of the tank, if you were me, how big/ proper ratio should the refugium be if I were to use DSB on it? How deep of a DSB would you go? Will you employ the use of a plenum (mix opinion on its usage - quite confusing)? Main tank will have at most 2 inch of live sand. I ask this because I read somewhere here or maybe Mr. Anthony Calfo's book (I can't remember) that a refugium size 20% of the display size is recommended for effective NNR. I also remember reading here a long time ago that a small amount of nitrates is beneficial or even necessary for keeping corals and to target 1-5ppm. <Jon, do search/read on our site on DSB's and refugiums. There is too much info available for me to write here. Yes, small amounts of nitrates are beneficial for plant/algae growth, and clams will also absorb it.> 2nd question. Again if you were me, what system would you use with regards to water circulation and proper water flow if you want to keep mostly SPS with a few LPS and soft corals? This tank is going to be in the center of the room viewable on all sides with pipes running to a room (about 15 feet away, piping under the floor boards) for the stuffs needed to keep the tank thriving. Obviously, the overflow is going to be in the center of the tank which is why I am having quite a fascinating imagination of how I am going to properly move the water. I want to eliminate as much as possible using powerheads attached to the glass. <I'd bulkhead the water coming into the tank and use a couple of the SCWD' (Switching Current Water Director) in the system. Again, this subject should be searched on our web site, too much info requiring too much time to do here. Go here. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/plumbingmarart.htm One thing to consider in planning is the distance from tank to pump. Every foot of pipe used will lower the pressure/flow rate of the pump and the amount of water that can be returned to the sump. Here is a link to some useful information regarding this. http://www.reefcentral.com/calc/hlc2.php> Lastly your thoughts on the best skimmer out there to blow waste off this upgrade tank. I was thinking of Precision Marine Bullet XL Model 2 protein skimmer. My second choice is a Deltec Protein skimmer but they are just way too expensive for me. <Personally, I like the AquaC's. Virtually hassle free and very efficient.> Thank you so much again James. It has been truly a joy writing you. <Why thank you, Jon, and good luck in your new venture.> Sincerely, Jon G. DSB, gen. -- 07/03/07 Morning crew! I've come to bother you for some more advice... At current I have a 55g tank with roughly 45-50lbs of live rock and nothing filtration wise but a prefilter and a recirc skimmer in my sump. Being as I've had my old 30 gallon tank glaring at me for some time now, I though about adding in a refugium with a DSB for added filtration/denitrification and fauna production for my dragonet. Is it reasonable to try and add this after my tank has been setup? <Sure> My plan was adding about 6" of fine to medium grade sand and a few pieces of (cured from my show tank) live rock to get things started. <And/or you should add about a measuring cup or two of your live sand from your established tank.> Does a DSB have to be cycled and functioning before I plumb it into my system? <That depends a bit on what type of sand you'll be using. Aragonite sand can leach stuff (like phosphates) when it's "new." So if you use aragonite sand, you might want to "cycle" it for a little bit before attaching it to the main tank. On the other hand, silica sand (masonry or classic sand box sand -- i.e. the kind that makes glass) should be good to go after a good rinsing with RO/DI water.> Or would I be fine to set it up and turn it on with no ill effects? <See above. :-)> My second question is on what inverts I should populate my refugium with for adequate sand stirring? Unfortunately to date I've not found any information on the subject that actually recommends anything specifically, simply "add sand stirring inverts" but perhaps I've not looked hard enough? <Well, if your current sand bed is well populated, then the answer is simple... just use your old sand to "seed" your new sand. If not, try looking for starter (or "seeder") live sand sold at a variety of places online (not the stuff sold in bags, the stuff kept and cultured in tanks). The "live sand" sold in bags is good stuff, but it's not likely to have much in the way of critters (probably mostly just bacteria and some other microbes). To get the good worms and everything, you'll need live sand that's been cultured in a tank. Or, you could just bum some off a fellow reefer with a well populated sand bed.> Thanks for the help, Mike <De nada, Sara M.> Another DSB/Nitrate Reduction Question -- 06/23/07 I have a 58gal tank + sump with approx 45lbs live rock, crushed coral substrate. <<This last is likely a large contributor to your Nitrate issue>> A Finger Leather, a few Mushrooms, Xenia, Zoanthids and some Yellow Polyps. <<But for the Xenia, quite a noxious combination>> All are small and well spread out. <<But in a relatively 'small' volume of water'¦do employ some purposeful chemical filtration (Poly-Filter/Carbon)>> Livestock = Yellow Tang, <<Tank is not big enough for this fish, mate>> Maroon Clown, Royal Gramma and a Sixline Wrasse + Snails and Hermits. <<Not that you should consider it now, but if things change, that Pseudocheilinus will make future fish additions problematic>> Protein skimmer that makes about an 8-12oz of dark skimmate a week. My nitrates are consistently in the 20s. <<Ah yes, this needs to come down. It's hard to say for sure but, perhaps you need a better/more efficient skimmer>> 5-gal water change every 2 weeks with aged RO water. <<Allowing the salt mix to 'blend' for several days I hope>> It's understood that by increasing water changes, I will dilute the Nitrates, but I do not want to have to do this on a permanent basis. <<Mmm, understand the mindset'¦but on this small volume this is an inexpensive and most healthful process. And doubling the volume to 10-gallons could make a very big difference here>> Reduced feeding does not seem to help reduce the Nitrates. <<Coming from somewhere else>> It seems that I have a lot of debris in the crushed coral even after using a gravel vac. <<Course substrates can be very problematic>> I have taken some crushed coral out and cleaned it but I am afraid to do a lot at once for fear of shocking the tank. <<Mmm'¦may not be much of an issue if the existing depth/volume is small>> I think that a DSB is the way to go. <<I am a strong proponent of this methodology>> After the DSB is up to par I would add more live rock. <<Don't act too quickly re the rock'¦fishes need room to roam>> At the present, 100lbs of pet store aragonite is not in my budget. <<The retail side of the hobby IS proud of this stuff>> I see 4 ways to get to my goal of having a DSB. 1) Remove all of the crushed coral at once and add a bag at a time of aragonite over several months until it reaches the 4-6 in. depth. 2) Add a 12x16x4 DSB in the sump inside a plastic container and then do the above. 3) Wait until I can get enough sand to do the change at one time. 4) Wildcard option, to use limestone play sand that I found in a local Home Depot (Chicago region). It did pass the vinegar test, but it does not say where it is from. The pallet is in a slot marked Old Castle but I did not see Old Castle on the label, I can/will check again. <<This is probably not Limestone but rather Aragonite sand'¦and most desirable/useful as such re our hobby>> If these were your choices, what you would do? <<Hmm, a combination of all these choices! I would purchase sand from Home Depot'¦add the DSB to the sump and wait a week'¦remove the crushed coral from the display and add the full depth of sugar-fine Aragonite to create the DSB'¦ And do consider rinsing this sand before adding to the display. Some authors say this isn't necessary'¦and on new systems it is less of an issue'¦but I speak from experience when I say you will not like the result if you merely dump this sand in to your existing display without rinsing away at least 'some' of the 'fines'>> Until the nitrates are lower, I will not add anything and will have to increase the water changes. <<Good>> I consult the WWM regularly and am thankful to all of the crew for the comprehensive site. <<The 'Crew' is happy you find the site useful>> I do not understand how you all have the time and patience to answer our repetitive questions. <<Hee-hee! Can be trying at times for sure'¦but the greater good we 'know' we are doing far outweighs the occasional inconvenience or thoughtless/selfish querier. And to be fair, the 'Crew' has it easy compared to Bob who must 'handle' all the queries we leave, as well as maintain the site/post all for the public's edification>> After reading your daily questions for a while, I have come to the conclusion that many of us who ask questions (myself included) are not ready to accept the hard truth; we want a magical cure to Ich and other problems, as in my case Nitrate reduction. <<Ah yes! Tis true many write in looking for validation for something they know is wrong, and subsequently refuse to accept the 'hard truth' as you say'¦but by far the majority of folks are just looking for some 'personal' attention/guidance to their dilemmas. And as we often tout here'¦nobody should rely on a 'single' source for their information anyway. Hobbyists should research/attempt to gain information from a variety of sources (books, NET chat forums, WWM, hobby clubs, etc.) and use their own good judgment to choose a course of action'¦WWM is just one cog on the wheel>> Thank you! <<Quite welcome'¦and 'thank you' for this opportunity to rant [grin]. Eric Russell>> DSB Size/Depth - 08/29/06 Hi again, <<Hello>> I am trying to add a DSB for my 125 FOWLR due to a persistent nitrate problem. <<Ok>> I do have sand in the main display at present but due to the home improvements done by my fish on a regular basis the SB is 2-3" in some spots and much less in most others. (Apparently they don't understand the benefits and keep moving it around when I try to fix it.) <<Ha!...indeed>> Be that as it may, how big of a sump/refugium and how deep of a SB would be an appropriate remote DSB? <<In my opinion...As large a vessel as you can practically employ, with a "minimum" 6-inches of sugar-fine aragonite>> I also have close to 200lbs of LR in the system. Thanks again for all your help. Mordy <<Regards, EricR>> DSB/Wet-Dry/Nitrates - 08/28/06 Hi there! <<Hello!>> How are you all today! <<Don't know about the rest, but I'm doing fine, thank you>> I hope I am not bugging you with a repeat question. <<No worries my friend>> I have read thru all your FAQs on sand beds and am getting confused. <<Oh?>> There seems to be many contradictions and I really want to get it right. <<Indeed...differing methodologies/opinions...>> I have a 220 gallon setup that is about 8 months old. I used 220 lbs of live rock to set it up as well as about 120 pounds of CaribSea live sand. That gave about an inch of sand on the bottom. <<Ok>> I also have a wet-dry running and am not sure if this is necessary and will contribute to higher nitrates. <<The wet-dry filter is not necessary, or even desirous, if this is a reef system...but can be beneficial to a FOWLR, though these days my preference when additional bio-filtration is needed is to turn to a fluidized-bed filter>> My nitrates are around 50. <<Mmm, you have a problem then, in my opinion. Nitrates should be <5ppm for a reef and <20ppm for a FOWLR>> I have an ASM G3 protein skimmer and a Blueline 40HDX pump. After the first few months of losing several fish, my tank seems to be settled and I have had luck with my fish for the last 4 months without any casualties. <<Won't last with nitrate readings this high. Though maybe not immediately evident, the high nitrate level will have/is having an effect on the fish and will cause problems/deaths in the long-term>> I'd like to get my nitrates to 0 and am wondering if I should increase the sand bed to at least 4 inches and get rid of the bio-balls. <<One approach>> I could also add some more live rock. <<Sounds like you have a lot of rock in there already>> Would you advise this or should I stick with my 1/2-1 inch sand bed (I lose some sand every week when I vacuum as it's fine sand)? <<I'm a fan of DSBs...I would try increasing the depth of the sand bed...and stop the weekly vacuuming as this will be counterproductive to the DSB. If detritus accumulation is a concern, then increase water flow in the tank>> If I made it a DSB, how would I go about it with all the fish and live rock in there? <<Considering the current depth/weekly vacuuming, simply add the sand until you reach the new desired depth. Pre-rinsing will help to reduce the associated cloudiness>> Can I purchase a different kind and put it on top? <<You can>> I would like to add some pink. <<Won't stay "pink"...I recommend a sugar-fine substrate, though you can go a bit larger if you wish (1mm-2mm)...or even go with a mix of these>> Also, would the LR need to be removed if I was adding 3 or 4 more inches? <<Nope...in fact, I prefer to place my live rock on the tank bottom and fill around it with the sand for better stability>> What about the fish? <<If you go to the trouble to pre-rinse the sand to reduce the "fines" suspended in the water column they should be fine. If you wish, you could even add the sand in stages (a day or two apart)>> I really have no where else for them to go as it's a 220. Maybe knowing my fish would help determine what sand bed is best for my tank. I have a Bluefaced angel, a maroon clown, a purple and Sailfin tang, a fairy wrasse, a Twinspot wrasse, a zebra moray and a few gobies. Also 2 anemones and a couple starfish and hermit crabs. <<Yikes! Anemones and 50ppm nitrates? Maybe you should try testing with another brand of test kit (Salifert, Seachem) to validate this reading>> I have had a little trouble with red Cyanobacteria and have been physically suctioning it out every week as well as weekly water changes. I can't get it all off the rock but do blow some of it off with a bulb syringe. I was wondering if increasing the sand bed would help get rid of that as well as hair algae which I have a little of? <<The DSB will provide numerous benefits, one of which will be the reduction of nitrogenous compounds (algae fuels), but an increase in water circulation will also help with the Cyano>> Any help in resolving the sand bed issue once and for all for my setup would be greatly appreciated. <<I think a 4"-6" sugar-fine DSB to be a worthwhile addition. As for the wet-dry, you might try replacing the bio-balls with fist-sized pieces of live rock and see if that helps with your nitrate. Adding some carbon/Poly-Filter somewhere in the filter path will also prove beneficial>> I want to do the best I can for my fish and make it as healthy in there as I can for them. <<Then address/determine the source of nitrate and bring that reading down. Do have a look here and among the links in blue at the top of the page: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/nitratesmar.htm >> You have such an awesome website and I read it often. <<Were pleased you find it of use>> Thanks so much for all your help. Heather <<Happy to assist. Regards, EricR>> Re: DSB/Wet-Dry/Nitrates - 08/31/06 Thanks Eric for all your great advice so far. <<Is my pleasure>> I did add a Poly-Filter. <<Always beneficial>> I change my carbon monthly and I clean out my filter pad as well as protein skimmer at least every other day. <<Excellent>> I was all set to order 150 pounds or so of sand when I decided first to take your advice and try another nitrate testing kit. <<A good move...and the cheaper route no doubt>> I bought the one the LFS had which was SeaTest and got a reading of 10 or less while the Red Sea by Marine Lab reads at least 50. <<Mmm...>> How can there be such a discrepancy? <<Many reasons my friend...differences in quality/age of reagents, contamination, inaccuracy of the gauge/scale/benchmark...even human error <grin> >> It seems odd that two tests can be so far apart. <<Is advisable to keep fresh test kits of good quality (Hach, LaMotte, Salifert, or Seachem...to name some of the better ones available)>> It makes me angry after spending so much money on my setup and continually trying to find ways to bring my supposedly high nitrates down. Which test should I believe? <<I'm inclined to believe the SeaTest over the Red Sea kit>> I prefer my shallow sand bed and would rather not add 4-inches or more to it if my nitrates are under control. <<Indeed, maybe you don't need the extra denitrification the DSB would offer after all>> I plan on this being mostly fish therefore the bioload will be higher than a reef tank and I worry that in the long run the DSB might not be best for a FOWLR tank. <<The DSB would be fine...though a fluidized-bed filter will react more quickly to fluctuating bioloads and is likely cheaper and easier to install>> I will remove the bioballs and put LR in the wet/dry like you suggested. I appreciate all your help. <<Happy to assist>> I now have a dumb newbie question. <<Ok>> You mentioned that I might want to increase the flow to my tank. <<Yes>> My 220 has two overflow boxes predrilled and I have a Blueline 40HDX pump which I was told was more than sufficient for my tank. <<Mmm, about 1200 gph "before" head loss..."sufficient" for feeding the sump yes, but not likely to provide "sufficient" flow/elimination of dead-spots/suspension of detritus...in my opinion>> However I don't think it pumps your recommended 10-20 times per gallons. <<Likely not even 5x your tank volume, after head loss>> How would I add more flow to this system without it looking ugly? <<Perhaps addition of a couple Tunze Stream pumps, or a "closed-loop" with a multi-nozzle return manifold (see here and the links in blue: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/pbretfaq3.htm and http://www.wetwebmedia.com/circmarart.htm >> I know this is a stupid question and probably very basic but I'm not really sure how to go about increasing the flow. <<Not stupid, and not always "basic", but do read the link/links provided and learn/choose your options. Get some ideas of what you want to do and come back to bounce them off me if you wish>> I do have a deep tank at 30 inches and some Cyano on the sand. It is also only 8 months old and I don't know if this is a phase or something I should address? <<If your only source of water flow is your sump return, increased water circulation may indeed help>> Thanks for all your great advice. <<Always welcome>> I don't trust my LFS very much because when I told them I thought my nitrates were around 50 they said I was crazy to worry as their fish only setups have nitrates of over 300. <<Mmm, well...while it's true that in most FO/FOWLR systems Nitrates "alone" may be no real worry, 300ppm will certainly cause harm. The fact this store claims no ill effect is largely due to the "transient" nature of the livestock ...though their customers are likely not so lucky do to the harm/further insult to health imposed by this store on their livestock with this kind of water quality. In my opinion, it is irresponsible (and probably just plain laziness/ignorance) to subject the livestock to these nitrate levels no matter how long the duration, and even more irresponsible to advise customers that this is "OK">> They seem to think I'm a bit crazy and that I overreact and worry too much about my fish. << (sigh) Maybe it's time to find another LFS...>> That is why and how I found your site and am a true fan. <<Yay!>> Thanks! Heather <<Be chatting, Eric Russell>>Re: DSB/Wet-Dry/Nitrates - 09/01/06 Hi Eric! <<Hello Heather!>> I think I'm becoming your groupie. <<Hee-hee! Cool, I think you're my first!>> Thanks so much for your speedy reply. I was shocked how fast you wrote back. <<A matter of timing/luck for the most part>> And it's nice to converse with someone who cares about this hobby and doesn't roll their eyes at me when I ask too many questions. <<Mmm, indeed...too bad your LFS doesn't see the value in education/keeping their customers in the hobby...or maybe they just don't have the capacity re>> (Well maybe you are but I can't see it at least like at my LFS) <<Ha! I'll never tell! (and spoil my image <grin>)>> I've been reading and am considering the Tunze Turbelle Stream pump. <<An excellent choice...I use these for water movement in my own system>> It's around $190. <<Not cheap, but excellent quality/engineering/performance>> Is it all inclusive or do I need to buy anything else with it? <<Based on the price I'm guessing you're looking at the model 6080? This is a synchronous-motor pump (does not run on a controller/wavemaker) and is ready to go out of the box. But, depending on your tank design/bracing, you may need one of the holding device extensions (3000.244 or 3000.260). These should be available on the site where you purchase the pump (if not, they can be found at MarineDepot.com), just review the information on each and determine which is needed (if any) for your tank>> The internet stores don't really say much but they talked about timers and wave controllers. Is any of that necessary? <<No...and not possible with some pumps/powerheads>> Where is the best place to put it in the aquarium? <<Hmm...distal from the sump return line...and positioned toward same for creation of a random turbulent flow pattern>> Would one be good since it says it pumps about 2250 gph on top of my 1200 gph I'm already getting? <<If this creates enough water movement to keep detritus in suspension/eliminate dead spots, yes...will likely take a bit of experimentation to determine the optimum position (or number of powerheads required)>> I have a feeling that more gph would definitely help with the Cyano. <<Me too, though other factors to consider as well. Have you read our articles/FAQs on blue-green alga? Here's a good place to start: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/bluegralgae.htm>> I always worried 5X wasn't enough flow but again my LFS disagreed with me. <<You must evaluate the needs/requirements of the livestock, but it is likely an increase in flow will be appreciated...even "enjoyed">> I'm trying to find another LFS but I live in Melbourne Beach Florida and unless I want to drive 90 minutes there are only 2 close by. I'm not too happy with either. <<I see...best to arm yourself with "your own" knowledge/research>> You were right about the 300 ppm nitrates hurting fish. When I sat down and worked out where all my fish losses were from, they were all from that store. <<Indeed...as if the stresses of capture/transport weren't enough already...>> I think I lost 8 out of 10 of the fish purchased there for a loss of about $500. <<a pity>> All my other fish purchased elsewhere have done fine. <<Hardly a scientific analysis...but does seem rather telling>> I guess they only care about the bottom line. <<Unfortunately there are stores out there with kind of short-sightedness>> Neither store carries live rock and the store that did and had a conscientious owner (shocking), went out of business. <<...why does it always have to be the good one's...?>> Do you recommend any internet sites for quality cured rock? <<Some of the members of my local reef club have been raving lately about the rock offered at Reefermadness.us >> I guess that is it for now. I'd like to purchase a quality pump that gives good gph and add some more LR and see how that goes. <<Sounds fine>> I read the links you sent me as well as Anthony's report on pumps and like the Tunze like you suggested. <<You won't be disappointed>> Thanks so much! Heather <<Cheers my friend, Eric Russell>> DSBs...Bed Size/Sand Type/Depth 8/12/06 What's happening? <<Good Morning!>> I just got my brand new 135 gallon (72x18X25) glass aquarium the other day (got a good deal at Glasscages.com, in case some one needs a recommendation on an inexpensive source) and am planning on setting up a new reef. <<Cool!>> I want to use my old 55 gallon that I have now for the refugium. <<A great idea>> I have been doing a bit of reading about the proper depth of the sand bed and came to the conclusion that is should be 1/2 inch and no more or 4-6 inches and no less. <<Depending on what you want from it/what you want it to do, yes...a good "generalization">> I wanted to run my plan by you guys (and ladies) and get an expert's opinion. <<Have never considered myself an "expert", but I'll be glad to share my opinions/experiences>> Because I don't care for the looks of 6-inches of substrate and aren't looking forward to spending hundreds on sand, I plan on only using 1/2 inch of sugar fine aragonite in the display and packing the 55 gallon refugium with 6+ -inches of slightly coarser aragonite to get the benefit of the DSB. What do you think? <<This sounds fine and is a quite acceptable alternative to placing the DSB in the display tank...though the total surface area will be quite less, as your are aware I'm sure>> I'm assuming once I install the baffles I will have about 30" of the original 48" of space in the refugium to cover with the substrate. Will this be substantially large enough to do the job, or is the 6-inches in the display needed as well? <<All relative...the DSB in the refugium will be effective...just not as effective as a larger DSB in the display. Whether or not it is effective enough will depend largely on the stocking density of the display and your aquarium maintenance habits/husbandry skills>> Will adding more than 6-inches in the refugium be even more beneficial or would it be overkill? <<Depending on the coarseness of the substrate you use, a few additional inches could be beneficial>> From what I read it sounds like DSBs need more flow to keep nutrients from building up. <<A healthy flow rate does help, yes>> Would you recommend an under gravel filter with some powerheads, or just a strong pump circulating the water from the refugium to the display? <<Definitely the latter>> I also wanted to ask what you thought about oolitic sand? <<Is ideal for marine sand beds/DSBs>> I saw an ad on EBay with decent prices. All it says is that it is oolitic, .4mm-1.6mm, consists of aragonite, dolomite, calcite, crushed coral, and shells. And it comes straight from the ocean here in the US. Doesn't really specify where and therefore I'm being a bit cautious. <<Mmm, might be wise. I believe there's only a few places where "aragonite" sand is collected...haven't ever heard any were off our own shores, but I'm not an authority re. You might want to try/order a small amount and give it the old "vinegar test" to see how much of/whether it is truly aragonite>> Thanks for all your help. Jon <<Happy to assist. Regards, EricR>> DSB..., Denitrator, Substrate Type/Adding Snails - 08/10/06 I have decided to install a DSB in a large bucket after trying for months to set up an AquaMedic NiTRATE reductor 400, without success. It would either produce sulphur or nitrate because the turn flow valve was very difficult to adjust, making it difficult to get the correct flow rate, the drips were either too fast or too slow, it was a right pain. <<Indeed...manufactured nitrate reduction equipment always seems too "fiddly" to me, no matter which design you choose. I think you will have better luck with the DSB>> During my visits to various aquatic shops in the area, I am getting many different reasons for and against the use of DSB's, also the use of various different types of media. <<Not surprised...some folks love'em, some folks hate'em...and even among those who employ a DSB opinions will vary on application. But the basics are the same...a deep enough bed for the size granulate chosen to permit adequate stratification of the different bacterial zones>> One that has been proposed is the use of PLAY PIT SAND; have you any thoughts on this? <<I do...the "play" sand is quite suitable for nitrification purposes and will perform this function as well as aragonite sand of the same grain size...but...the play sand will not provide any buffering capacity and it is decidedly "sharper" than aragonite which "might" be rough on some of the critters which will inhabit the sand bed. The play sand will work fine, but my preference is sugar-fine aragonite sand...or even a "mixture" of the two if obtaining enough aragonite is an issue>> I was also thinking of using sand snails to help with the movement of the upper layers of sand within the DSB. <<You can do this (Nassarius and/or Cerith species), though it is not necessary. Sand dwelling/stirring critters will find their way to the DSB in time>> Will they require feeding or will they manage to survive on their own? <<Possibly...best to let the DSB mature for several months before adding>> Any feed back on this would be gratefully appreciated. <<You have mine>> Phil Bowen England <<Regards, Eric Russell...South Carolina>> Small Refugium DSB - 07/26/06 I made a 5 gallon refugium that sits behind my main tank, a ten gallon, with the goals of nutrient export, pod production, pH stability and increased water volume. <<Excellent>> I was planning on putting Chaetomorpha, live rock rubble, and some sand in this refugium and running it on a reverse photoperiod. <<Okay>> My question is would I see any benefits from a deep sand bed in this size refugium (the sand area's footprint would be 5"X15") or would I be better of with a shallow sand bed and more water volume? <<Everything is relative my friend...considering the small size of the display, this particular DSB could indeed provide some benefit>> Thanks a lot for any help you can give me. Eli <<Is my pleasure to assist. Regards, EricR>> DSB Canister Filter? - 07/24/06 Hello, <<Howdy>> I just started the fish keeping hobby and I established a 90 gallon reef tank in my living room. <<neat!>> While doing research I came across the process of denitrification. <<Okay>> I came to understand that Nitrate filters are not reliable. <<Mmm, probably not so much "not reliable" as "fiddly"...requiring constant attention/adjustment to optimize their usage>> Instead, I read that a DSB could be very effective at reducing Nitrates. <<Indeed>> Well the thing is, I don't want to add a deep layer of sand in my display tank, and since I can't get a sump (there's no space under the tank) I came up with an idea that might seem weird: Could I apply a thick layer of sand in an empty canister filter to act as a DSB filter? <<Mmm, no...aside from not being a large enough volume to be of benefit, pressurizing/running the filter will cause the water to be "forced" through the entire volume of sand. This will defeat the denitrification process as there will be no "stratification" of the sand bed with the varying levels of oxygen allowing the different classes of bacteria to form/populate...all of which are part of/necessary to the process of denitrification>> I imagine it will fulfill the role of a sump. <<Not in my opinion>> Please correct me if I'm wrong. <<Since a sump is out of the question, you might wish to look in to the addition of a "hang-on" style refugium in which to place the sand bed. Another option would be if you have room "over" the tank to place a large (salt) bucket half-full of sand with water pumped up to the bucket and allowed to gravity drain back to the tank from a bulkhead fitting placed just below the lip of the bucket>> Also, I live next to the sea, where the sand in the coastal areas is extra-fine (which I read is preferable for DBS). Could I use this sand? or is it a bad idea? <<Best not to use it due to the possibility of introducing pollutants/pests>> One last question. Concerning macroalgae, how effective are they at denitrification? <<Not so much "denitrification...is a different type of host/environment, performs a different function from the deep sand bed...yet still useful through regular harvesting for removal of organic compounds (including nitrate) as part of their nutrient uptake>> Also is there a problem to add those in my display tank (I'm particularly interested in red macroalgae)? <<Can be done, though some species can be very invasive (e.g. - Caulerpa sp.) while others might be quickly consumed (e.g. - Gracilaria) by some fish species (e.g. - Tangs/Rabbitfish) Sorry for the long read. <<No worries mate>> Any help will be greatly appreciated. <<I hope I have>> Thank you. Mohammad <<Regards, EricR>> Protein Skimming Power/Phosphate/DSB removal 7/15/06 Hello, Thanks for running such a great site. I've learned so much from reading your Q&A's. < Bob and the others do a wonderful job! > I have a 55g reef tank with about 50 lbs of live rock and a 4" deep sand bed. It's about 15 months old and so far everything has been working very well, except for a recent, steep phosphate spike. Is that typical for a DSB? < No, that is not typical at all. > (I don't believe it is from overfeeding.) < Are you feeding frozen foods? If you are not rinsing the foods well, the phosphate from the juices could be encouraging the spike. Another thing to consider, if the prepared foods have fish meal in the first five ingredients, the phosphates could be coming from that! > Is an extremely high level of phosphate a possible cause for my losing a number of fish recently, a day or two after acclimation (which I normally do gradually over about 1-1/2 hours)? (It's not due to a mantis shrimp; there is no clicking, and no sightings at night.) < I seriously doubt the phosphates would cause that kind of reaction. I would look more at temperature fluctuations, or the possibility of airborne pollutants. > After talking to a couple of LFS, I'm becoming convinced that the DSB will eventually crash, and I am planning to remove it soon. How gradually do I have to do that? < A four inch sand bed is not deep enough to really cause a serious problem, but if you must remove some, only remove an inch or so. Remember, the sand under the first inch layer is horribly toxic. Don't stir up too much! > My main question has to do with skimming. I have an Aqua C Remora (not Pro) with the MaxiJet 1200 powerhead and overflow box (I have no room for a sump). One LFS is saying that that is not enough skimming capacity for a 55 g tank. Currently I have four small fish, a cleanup crew of 20 hermit crabs and 15 snails, four small colonies of mushroom polyps and two small frogspawns, but I hope to add a few more fish and many more corals. How much skimming power do I really need with this setup, once the DSB is gone? < That is directly related to the amount of food you feed, and the frequency of partial water changes. To place exacting limitations, or requirements on such is difficult. > < Yet another thing to consider is the possibility of your source water or supplements containing phosphates. Be careful when adding anything to buffer the pH, for nearly all related products use phosphate buffering agents! > Many thanks for all your help < I hope I was indeed helpful! > Bob < RichardB > "Sponges grow in the ocean. I wonder how much deeper the ocean would be if that didn't happen." ~Steven Wright DSB's...Adding More Substrate 6/26/06 Hi Crew! <Hello Brett> I've decided to beef up my substrate by adding another inch or so to my DSB. Right now it's about 2-3 inches and am planning to add another inch or so of Arag-Alive Fiji Pink. Will I be safe adding it all at once, or should I gradually add the sand over a few days? <Should be no problem adding all at once.> Thanks for any help! <You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)> Brett DSB 6/9/06 Hey Crew! Thank you for the great service you provide, don't know what we would do without you all! I am becoming more confused by the minute. I spent quite some time researching & thought I had covered all my bases. I have DSB of 7 inches. I decided to go w/ depth for a few reasons (filtering, maintenance, & wanting to keep a Jawfish). I read that you were not supposed to disturb a DSB, as it might "crash" the tank. Now, I am reading that I should "poke" or "stir" the DSB to prevent a "crash". Can I get your thought on this? If it does require "poking/stirring", how should this be done and how often? Again, thank you for the site & any help I can get on this matter. Take care, Wendy <<Wendy: Intentionally stirring up the DSB ruins the whole point of the DSB; namely that you need higher and lower oxygen areas in the DSB to realize the benefits of the DSB. Best of luck, Roy>> Re: QT screw up, oh and DSB sand - 05/13/2006 Thanks again for your reply Bob. The weirdest thing has happened - the ich (or at least what I thought was ich) disappeared from Regal tang in less than a day. Is that possible? <Umm, yes... is not really gone... is/has cycled off... your system is infested... and like that not-so-popular ex-Austrian Gov of the Sunshine State, it'll be "baaaaack"> - I guess it could have been micro bubbles but I don't think so since all I have is small hang on filter and power head as filtration- maybe some sand particles in the QT ( there is no sand bed in the QT)?. <I suspect you're right here. This was Crypt> In my other QT, my yellow eye tang has regained its color and the fish seem happy. I am doing a 10% water change in QT every 2-3 days to help the stress levels. Can a FW dip with Methylene blue remove ich immediately? <Not generally...> That's all I did!! Any ideas ?- Oh well. On an unrelated matter I have a refugium with a DSB that I had taken offline for a couple of months. I have decided to give more space to the Chaeto so I began to remove my 7 inch sugar fine sand (to use in my new system) when I noticed some black streaks in the sand and smelled an odor . Can I still reuse the sand and if so do I need to rinse or recycle it with salt water? <Best to give this a vigorous rinse at least... the hydrogen sulfide smell should be "all gone" before re-using... though the black stain may well persist. Bob Fenner> Many thanks again Deep Sand Bed - 05/11/06 HI, I was wondering if you could tell me the proper way to manage a 5-inch deep sand bed? THANKS. <<A rather nebulous question my friend. Do start reading here ( http://www.wetwebmedia.com/deepsandbeds.htm) being sure to follow/read among the links in blue at the top of the page...and feel free to come back with more specific questions if need be. Regards, EricR>> Nano DSB - 04/26/06 I am a huge fan
of the DSB and have had great success with it in my 75 gallon reef tank
at home (thanks to the info on wetwebmedia.com). I have now started a
24 gallon AquaPod at work so I can enjoy my reef all day. <Very
cool! I want one at work too! But just remember
-- you're working with a whole different animal here now that you
limited your water volume to such a small amount.> I employed a 4
1/4" oolitic sandbed with 25-30 lbs of LR. <Sounds nice --
however severely limits your volume once again, you will have to be
much more careful here, won't be as forgiving as your 75g> I
also threw in a couple scoops of sand from my DSB at home to seed it
with some pods and worms. The tank is stocked with 2 small Chromis, a
very small ocellaris and the usual assortment of janitors. <Just
fine amount of bioload here.> Corals include a pom pom xenia, star
polyps, Fungia sp, assorted zoo's, 2 Ricordea yuma, and other
various mushrooms. The Nitrate has steadily risen in the AquaPod
(unlike my tank at home that has had undetectable levels for almost 2
years) it's currently around 50ppm after 2 months. <Ouch, much
too high here -- especially stressful for your inverts. You
have much too much in this tank given its only 2 months old.> Is the
DSB just not deep enough for a volume this small, maybe it needs more
time? <I wouldn't add anymore sand here, you already have little
water.> I don't think the bioload is anywhere near "too
much" fish wise and I feed very sparingly. <Bioload is
fine.> I run a micron filter pad, changed daily and use RO for top
off. I'm planning on buying a little skimmer for it, but don't
have great confidence in the cheap ones that can fit in an aquarium
like this (current's fission skimmer). <Absolutely must have a
skimmer here. Personally I've found that the fission
doesn't do much. Adding a sump/refugium with a better
skimmer like the Remora, would be the best option.> Would it be
worth slowly adding another inch or so of sand? <I wouldn't,
no.> Any ideas are appreciated. For now I'm just going to go
back to weekly water changes until I get things figured out. <Keep
up your water changes, it is possible that you haven't quite cycled
completely though. You're really high and you have
enough in there to add to it daily. Next time, with a volume
so small, I would wait a little longer than you did before adding
inverts precisely for this reason. Good luck, Jen S.>
Thanks so much, Jeremy DSB and Confusion(s) - 04/19/06 Hello to the WWM person of the day! <Guess that is me, Adam J with you today'¦..'err tonight.> I have a 100gl tank which I purchased recently and when it was moved I saved half the water, as well as most of the sand. <Okay.> I set it up as a reef, with 4" DSB, but kept having algae blooms because one powerhead blasted a corner and stirred up the sand too much. <Common problem with DSB's.> At this point I decided to remove a pesky tang and Anthias, which came with the purchase, so having to basically break down the tank to catch them, I moved all the LR to my 40gl tank with no sand bed. <Okay.> OK, here's where things get fuzzy...I decided I would like to keep the smaller tank as the reef tank instead. <All right.> It has plenty of pods and critters and I want to set it up as a Seahorse exhibit. <Be sure to research the needs of these creatures, not an endeavour I recommend to just casual aquarists.> Now for the 100gl...It has been sitting for 3 months with old water, no light, no heat, etc. <What about flow, was it stagnant.> I drained nearly all the water, and to my surprise, a few snails (who got left behind), were still moving along in there. With the tank sitting so long with out any attention, is the sand still viable? <Sure.> I am planning a FOWLR, so I need to decide what to do with this sand. <Keep if you want, but once the tank is in 'working' order again I would allow a minimum of 30 days to let it stabilize.> Do I clean the sand entirely with saltwater, remove it completely or just the top layer? <I would vacuumed any detritus out of it, stirring if necessary since there is no livestock in the tank.> Would it be usable for the 40gl tank? <You could, but moving it will disturb the anaerobic pockets, it will cause the 'levels' in the 40 gallon to go array'¦this is fine if their isn't any livestock in there yet.> If I want to add sand to make it deeper, would I want to add sand a little at a time or could I put in another inch all across and stir it up a bit? I assume curing any new LR might be done simultaneously. <That's what I would do.> This would all take place before any inhabitants move in, <Great, that's what I was concerned about.> of course. Trying to juggle setting up two DSB's at once is giving me a real headache. Please help me stop the "spinning room" syndrome! Thanks! <Adam J.> Re: reusing an old sand bed 4/25/06 Thanks for clearing the confusion Adam. <He seems to have skipped town...> No, there is no water flow in the big tank. I'll do as you recommended and simply siphon off the sediment along with stirring up the top layer of sand. As for the 40gl, it does have a couple of fish (a fire fish, plus a small clown who will be returned to the 100gl ), also Xenia, hammer, GS polyps, a feather duster, along with a couple of turbo and Ceriths, hermits and a Choc. chip star (which will go back in the 100gl when its livable). I do have some experience, along with all the research I'm doing, to feel confident making the reef ready for horses. Here's my next question... should I retrofit a DSB with new sand into the 40gl? <Could... as you'll see/find, I am a big/ger fan of remoting such in separate tied-in sumps/refugiums... much easier to maintain, manipulate> As mentioned earlier, all the rock and inhabitants were originally placed in there as a holding tank with out any sand bed. I do have plenty of pods and such living in a few clumps of Chaetomorpha (Brillo pad) algae and I've see Nano tanks kept without one, but I wouldn't be able to put a fuge on the back. On a scale of 1-10, which would you opt for? Also, I plan on returning the bio-balls to the big tank's sump, in addition to keeping the DSB. Any concerns? Thanks again <Sorry, don't understand your stated options clearly... I would choose the largest/r 'fuge... place the DSB there. Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/marsetupindex2.htm see the area about four "paragraphs" down on Refugiums? Bob Fenner> DSB For A Large Tank - 04/09/06 Dear Bob, <<EricR here this morning...I think Bob is still asleep/recovering from his Lavaman ordeal <grin>.>> I currently have an 8ft tank and would like to add a deep sand bed to assist in denitrification and to provide more comfort for my stingray. <<A very good idea in my opinion. I too have a 8ft tank, with a 6" DSB...but no stingray (is a reef display).>> I have read the article on the website, and am aware that 3" depth is a minimum. <<Mmm...can depend on 'grain-size' of the substrate, with larger grain-sizes meaning deeper beds. But even when using sugar-fine sand my preference is for a 4-inch minimum.>> There is 40kg of fine coral sand, 12 kg of fine grade aragonite currently in the tank which makes up an average depth of between 1-2 inches. I will create the DSB by adding sugar fine sand, although I would like your opinion as to how deep I should go? <<Were it me, with this mix of sand, I would shoot for an absolute minimum depth of 4 inches...even 5 or 6 inches if your not opposed to the look/loss of depth to the open water column. I know that bigger tanks require deeper sand beds. <<Not sure I agree with this. All things equal, the sand bed will be proportionately larger in the larger tank. As far as I'm concerned, 'minimum' bed depths would apply equally to all tank sizes.>> Current inhabitants included a small masked-stingray, 3 snowflakes. <<Sounds like a very nice display. This ray (Dasyatis kuhlii) seems to be one of the better choices for aquariums (not to be confused with Taeniura lymna...another/different 'blue-spotted' ray with a very poor survival record) and will definitely appreciate a 'fine' sand bed.>> Also, I have attached a spare 10g tank as a refugium (which I know is small, but at least it puts the tank to good use) and would also like to know if creating a deep sand bed in there, without having a DSB in the main display, would have any sort of effect on denitrification? <<Probably not a noticeable effect...considering the size/stock list of the display. I think putting the DSB in the display is your best option.>> I'm just trying to get my head around the proportionate area of DSB and its correlation to the degree of denitrification. <<Please have a look here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/deepsandbeds.htm >> Thanks in advance, Joe <<Quite welcome. Regards, EricR>> New CaribSea Aragonite Substrate 4/6/06 Good afternoon gang! <Jeff> I just purchased a bag of the CaribSea Aragonite to add to my growing 55g FOWLR tank. Once home I found a hole in the bag. Should I set up a QT for this sand, or would it be safe to add to the tank as is? <Very likely fine as is... just rinse (for dust mainly) and pour in> Also, I am increasing my DSB to somewhere between 3 and 5" based on what I have been reading on the WWM site. I currently have between 2 and 3" of sugar sand with a mixture of crushed shells. I have approximately 50#'s of crushed coral that I took out of the tank when I added the sand. Can I mix some of that crushed coral with the aragonite to get my DSB where I want it? <Yes> The reason for the DSB was to get away from vacuuming the CC every two weeks. I don't want to add the CC if I will have to go back to that biweekly cleaning regimen. <Still will need to be stirred a bit... See WWM re DSBs> I am also getting ready to add 48#'s of live rock, already have about 12lbs in tank, once it get through the curing cycle. With the addition of the LR and the increased DSB, I am wanting to remove the bioballs I have in my wet/dry filter. <Should be fine to do> This tank has been established for about 2 years. Nitrates have always stayed around 10 to 20 PPM. With all I am doing/want to do, with regular water changes, am I headed in the right direction to get nitrates down to zero? <Yes... perhaps a later addition of a refugium...> Thanks in advance for your help! Jeff <Welcome. Bob Fenner> Re: New CaribSea Aragonite Substrate 4/6/06 Thanks for the reply Bob!! <Welcome> You mentioned that the sand/CC mixture would have to be stirred around a bit....I have about 75 Ilyanassa snails currently in the tank to keep the sand stirred up. Will that work? <Should... perhaps but a bit of "grunge" that you might want to stir at the edge where the viewing panels might show it> These snails are about the size of a dime and seem to be doing quite well. ...or do I still need to stir it up about every two weeks or so? Thanks again!! Jeff <Likely no need here. Bob Fenner> DSB and Live Rock Quandary 4/1/06 What is right? Good evening from NC! <Good evening to you too!> I have a 55 FOWLR tank that has been up and running for about 2 years. I currently have about 12 lbs of rock, some coral skeletons, barnacles, shells, and a 3" sand bed. Water conditions are acceptable: ammonia - 0, nitrites - 0, nitrates - 15 to 20ppm, PH - 8.0 to 8.2, SG - 1.023-1.026....the latter three vary a little with water changes. The rock I currently have in the tank is partially in the sand, with one piece on top. I have recently purchased 48 lbs of Fiji Premium rock and have it curing now. It is currently in a 35 gal covered trash can with a heater, air stone, and a power head...I do not have an extra skimmer...so I hope what I have will work. I am closely monitoring the ammonia and changing water as needed per what I have read. <Sounds good.> My question is....after curing, should I move the sand and set the rock on the bottom of the tank, then push the sand around each "base"? Or set it on top and try to "wiggle" it into the sand? I only have three fish at this point....2 damsels and 1 blue tang...along with 1 blue leg hermit and several small snails. I would like to add an anemone and a pair of clowns once I get everything in place and all the water conditions stable. After reading WWM for hours it seems, I know that the rock will need to stay clear of the back and sides for cleaning purposes. I am just not certain about the sand placement. <This is really your preference. Either way you have to make is stable. Setting it up with no substrate is one way to do it. However you can also use a cement designed for SW tanks to stabilize it also. It's really what is easier for you. Good luck! > Thanks in advance for your input. Trust me....it is very much appreciated!! <No problem, Jen S.> Jeff Regarding
the use of Macroalgae and DSB in a unorthodox remote manner
2/26/06 Crew, Hope you are all well. <Doing well thank you! Tim
answering your questions today.> I have been unable to find any
reference to this idea and would like a singular or collective opinion
if you have interest. For those of us who have smaller reef systems
with no room for refuge, sump, etc. (at least no room we are allowed in
the living room or I would have 10 interconnected tanks); <My
situation also at present... though stay tuned as I am intending on
soon posting a useful article regarding this issue!> Here are my
assumptions - Since macroalgae does a wondrous job ( specifically
Chaeto and Caulerpa, Chaeto being my preference ) <Mine too -
Caulerpa has a host of problems of its own!> in the removal of
dissolved organics/excess nutrients - and a DSB if maintained properly
can be wondrous as well - and a DSB can be remote Could it be possible
to have a non-connected system (i.e. LARGE Rubbermaid container) with
the proper heat, moderate circulation and enough lighting to effect
macroalgae growth, to basically use as a tank
water purifier. I can envision swapping 10
gallons of change water out of the tank with 10 gallons out of the
remote system and letting the DSB and macro 'process' it for
later use. <I would not recommend this, although I appreciate your
thinking. The reason is that doing water changes do not simply reduce
the level of DOCs in the water, keeping nitrates and phosphates under
control, but also I) removes a variety of other chemicals that may be
in the water that may not be filtered out by algae or a DSB, for
example the toxins released by some corals and other animals ii) water
changes actually are important for adding chemicals to the water, in
particular trace elements that may become depleted otherwise. Of course
with regard to the latter, you could supplement these manually with
additives, but I would still be concerned about a potential build-up of
toxins in the water.> I could set this up in the garage even in
colder months with the proper insulation and heating and have an
available supply ready to use as change water. Would also
ensure that when/if the DSB got icky or Caulerpa went crashed, there
would be no main tank crash. Just a wild thought and thanks for any
input, if you feel its warranted. <I would recommend avoiding this
option> My only other options is to hypnotize spouse to put a 120g
in the formal living room that can have a refugium...<If you manage
this, please do tell me your technique as I have been trying the same
for some time now, but so far my spiral print-outs have been
unsuccessful!>.but she might see that coming.. Take care, Bill DSB maintenance 2/24/06 <Hi Steven - Tim answering your question today!> I have a question regarding the maintenance of my DSB. First I should describe my system. The tank in question is a 55g FOWLR containing a 5" bed of fine aragonite with about 80lbs of rock. Its inhabitants are a pair of Clarkiis and a cleanup crew consisting of a few large Turbos, some Nassarius snails, blue-legged hermits, and a Diadema urchin. This tank flows down to a 10g dark refugium (used for plankton generation) and then into a 29g illuminated sump housing various soft corals. Filtration is largely natural with the except of small amounts of carbon (changed weekly) and a SeaClone 150 skimmer. <Is the skimmer working for you? I have read mixed reviews.> Now for the DSB question. My concern is that I have not been properly maintaining the sand bed. I have heard a lot of mixed opinions regarding the cleaning of DSBs. Some say to occasionally stir the top inch, others say to stir the whole sand bed, and some say to vacuum the sand. I have been doing none of these. Instead I was assuming that the Nassarius snails would adequately stir the top inch as well as remove detritus. Do you think that this is sufficient? <Review the information at http://www.wetwebmedia.com/deepsandbeds.htm and the related links with regard to proper maintenance of a DSB. In terms of the Nassarius, their adequacy will depend on the number in your tank; the blue hermits will also help.> Or should I begin a cleaning regimen? <Always a good idea - especially in terms of vacuuming the surface of the substrate.> If I do start cleaning the sand now am I putting the system in danger by releasing excess nutrients and/or hydrogen sulfide? <This should not be a problem, though will depend on the age of the sand bed and the extent to which your cleaning crew have been keeping things tidy.> I guess I was thinking about starting to vacuum the sand and starting by doing only a small fraction every few days so that if there is hydrogen sulfide release it will be on a smaller scale. <Always better to be safe, I agree.> And one more question regarding the tank's set-up. When I set up this tank I first laid down the sand bed, and then placed the rock on top. The rock covers approximately half of the DSB surface area. Was this a mistake? Recent reading suggested to me that it is a mistake because the area underneath the rocks will not be reached well enough by the detritivores and can't be stirred by myself without removing the rock, so it will end up being a large nutrient sink. I guess my thoughts during the set-up were that rock on top of the sand would be fine because uneaten food/waste would not settle under the rocks and so this area would relatively nutrient-free with the except of small amounts of organics seeping in from neighboring uncovered portions of the bed. Furthermore, the rock placed atop the DSB should aid in creating the hypoxic conditions necessary for natural denitrification, correct? Your opinions are much appreciated! And huge thanks to the entire WWM crew for taking the time to make us all better aquarists! DSB layered sizes - 2/21/2006 Hey guys, First I want to thank you all for the great information on the site. It is truly invaluable. I have a question regarding a DSB in a 24 gallon Nano tank. I have used a 4-8" DSB in my 75 gallon reef tank for over a year (I know that's a big difference, the current has done lots of shaping). I used Aragamax "Select Grade", and the nitrates are undetectable. Needless to say I am very happy with it. So this is my question, I am starting up a 24 gallon AquaPod (I hope these ones don't crack!) at work to keep part of my reef with me all day. My LFS does not carry the Aragamax "Select Grade" that I used for my first DSB. They do have the "Special Grade" which is still pretty fine, but not sugar fine. They advertise the Special Grade as 1-1.7mm. Is this Ok to use, or should I wait until I can get the true "oolitic" size? <I would use either... the one on hand is fine> I was thinking that I could put down 3" of the "Special", and then maybe 1" on top of that using the "Select" I have some select left over). I can also get a "super fine" 0.2 to 1.22 mm, I was worried that may be too small. What do you think? Thanks, Jeremy <If mixed, will mix... Bob Fenner> Refugium Methodology...Reverse Flow DSB? - 02/11/06 Hi, <<Hello>> I have a 210g reef tank (200lbs. LR and a large number of corals) with a 40g sump and a 40g refugium. <<cool>> Lighting is an Aquamedic space light with 3-250W 20K HQI. My skimmer is an Aquamedic model, not sure of the model number but I have found it to be excellent. <<ok>> The pump for the return is a Dolphin 3000gph. I have been toying around with various ideas to try to improve on the refugium because it's not doing what it is supposed to do which is act primarily as a nitrate reducer. <<I see...>> In talking to various people, I came across an idea that intrigued me but have not been able to verify it. In a nutshell, it uses a plenum (~2"tall) and has approximately 5-6" of sand on top. <<You don't need the plenum...>> The interesting part is that a pipe is run under the plenum and water is slowly pushed thru the sand and then returns to the main tank. <<Hmm...ok>> I have not been able to verify the effectiveness of this, and while I don't mind experimenting, I would prefer not to do anything that would have a truly detrimental affect. Any ideas would be great. <<I'm not familiar with this methodology...for my two cents, I would employ a simple lighted vegetable refugium with a 6" sugar-fine DSB and Chaetomorpha algae. But if you're interested, do set up a test system as described, and let us know your findings.>> L <<Regards, E >> DSB and ammonia production 2/7/06 Robert or WWM person. <Okay> I understand that under some conditions a DSB or other anaerobic nitrate reduction can return ammonia instead of nitrogen gas. This has resulted in a civil discussion between me and some others. 1) Is my point correct and there is some way however remote a DSB can return ammonia instead of nitrogen gas. <Yes> 2) is the poster correct in his assessment that the page on WWM is incorrect?: from: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwnitrates.htm quote: This occurs in two half-reactions Nitrate to Nitrite to Nitrogen NO3 + 2 electrons + H+ <=> NO2 + H2O NO2 + 3 electrons + 4 H+ 1/2 N2 (nitrogen gas) + 2 H2O or, taken together: NO3 + 5 electrons + 6 H+ <=> 1/2 N2 + 3 H2O Where some anaerobic microbes (lack of oxygen) convert nitrates into transitory nitrite and ultimately ammonia molecules. Note, with the use/incorporation of H+/protons pH is elevated. Note further that this is where the reduction of carbon-based materials comes into play in "feeding" purposeful Denitrators, providing the electrons and hydrogen ions, balancing these RedOx equations. <This/these are valid statements... though not (necessarily, very) complete> unquote poster: quote: That is his entire discussion of the chemistry of denitrification. Note that he heads his listing of the equations "Nitrate to Nitrite to Nitrogen," that none of the equations contain ammonia, and that the only reference to ammonia is in that singular sentence. Note also that aqueous ammonia in your tanks exists as ions, not molecules. <Mmm, the "chargedness" of chemical species has nothing to do with whether they are molecular or no> So the sentence as it stands, taken in context, seems incongruous. A reasonable conclusion is that his mention of ammonia in that sentence was in error; <Mmm, just an omission> that he likely meant to say "some anaerobic microbes (lack of oxygen) convert nitrates into transitory nitrite and ultimately nitrogen molecules." <Okay> unquote and emphasis added. To me your site said exactly what it meant to say. That under some conditions it is possible to generate ammonia not nitrogen gas. But under normal (say low ph values) you get nitrogen gas. <One common set of conditions, yes> thanks in advance. Bob <... I would like to make complete declarative statements re this (and other important aquaristic) topics... Am wondering though, how much utility/popularity these would enjoy. Cheers, Bob Fenner> DSB invention 02-05-06 Maybe a new invention Hi all. I'm a saltwater fish enthusiast. And I had an idea that may work to reduce nitrates. If one built a chamber with a four foot long piece of 3" pvc and had a 3" to 1 1/2" adapter on each end. And filled the chamber with 2-4mm aragonite substrate. Then pump water through it. Could there be the Anaerobic bacteria in there that would reduce the nitrates? Maybe this is something that people are already doing. Or maybe it wouldn't work, but it sounds good in theory. What do you think? <First off, you would need a pretty powerful pump to push water through 4' x 3" of aragonite. You would in essence be pushing aerated water through it so that would eliminate the anaerobic function. Much less fooling around if you just went with a DSB. James (Salty Dog)> Nick Myrtle Beach Question on
DSBs 1/27/06 Hello Crew, <Jennica> I've read
your Reef Invertebrates book. The book and your website
appears to -very- strongly recommend using sugar-fine sand (e.g., like
CaribSea Aragamax sugar sand), but the reference chart at CaribSea (
http://www.carib-sea.com/media/aquatic/reference.jpg) gives
these sizes only a "G" rating at best for use in deep sand
beds. Only the grains the next size step up earn the
"E" rating. Do you know why that is?
<Mmm, nope> I'd really love to pursue a DSB not just for the
denitrification, but also for the opportunity to watch interesting
creepy crawly critters in action. Regards, JJ <Do contact CaribSea
here... and make known what they say. Thanks. Bob Fenner> Replacing Sand, Building Depth Back Up - 01/05/2006 Hello, <Hi there Anne.> I've looked through the questions but haven't come across one that answers mine........ <Ok.> I have been taking out small amounts of sand during my weekly water changes (the last three times) that seem to have Cyanobacteria growing on it. <Hate it when that happens. You can try a smaller diameter tube, should help.> I'm starting to notice my DSB isn't so deep anymore. Is it ok to add sand back into the tank a little at a time to build this back up? <Yes, and you're right, a little at a time. When adding try moving small portions, add the new, smooth the old back over. Don't bury the existing bed.> Thank you <Gladly. - Josh> Anne Canfield Staff Research Associate II California National Primate Research Center <Awesome. I love 'em!:)> Deep sand bed I can't seem to get my nitrates under 20ppm even with weekly 10% changes. <As you (will) know, there are a few key inputs/outputs here...> I was/am thinking of converting to a DSB. Right now I have 25 lbs of crushed coral in the tank(50g) as a substrate. Would I benefit from replacing the crushed coral with sand? <Perhaps> If I add sand, should I leave the crushed coral or remove it? <If there is room, I would leave it, have both> One local "expert" just told me that sand will eventually kill a tank as it traps all of the nitrates and phosphates until one day it all gets released into the tank. <Mmm, well... there is some factuality to the statement...> I'm thinking that if a maintenance crew of crabs, snails, sand sifters, etc are in place that should take care of that concern no? <This and periodic replacement, addition of material, yes> Now, I do have a fuzzy lion and I'm fearful that any shrimp I add he will just eat, so there goes part of the cleaning crew. Thanks David <Please take the time to peruse the articles and FAQs files archived on WWM re DSB's, Nitrates... marine substrates period. Bob Fenner> Re: replaced deep sand bed 1/10/06 Hi all, I am sure I should of given you more information. This is a 55 gallon tank with 1 year old 60 lbs of live rock. There is an internal refugium with sand and rock and macro algae. I hope this is enough information. I really appreciate your support. Thanks Ernie <... sounds good. Bob Fenner> Moving A DSB...No Party - 12/06/05 WWM DSB Guru: Hello, <<Howdy>> I'd like any advice you have on moving a DSB. <<Generally not worth the bother/mess to try to move the entire bed...is up to you...but I would place new sand in the new tank and just seed it generously with sand from the old tank.>> Currently, I have about a 3-4" sugar-fine Oolitic DSB in a 100 gal. reef that's been happily gobbling nitrates for 2.5 years. <<Very good!>> I'm moving all of the livestock to a larger tank. I plan to move the LR and the fish first, then slowly scoop out sections of the DSB, rinse it gently in remaining tank water, and replant it in the new tank at about 10 lbs per day (I think I have about 150 lbs total to move.). <<Mmm...see my previous comment. Do be aware that relocating the old sand bed will cause a die-off of micro-/macro-life within the bed as the different levels/layers become mixed together.>> DSB critters like my sand sifting starfish will move after the bulk of the sand gets moved into the new tank. I'm planning on avoiding moving the whole thing at once to avoid any noxious sulfur based gases getting dumped into the new tank, or any other nasties that might be released upon disturbing the bed. <<Of little concern.>> I'll disturb quite a bit of the anaerobic bacteria, <<Among other things...>> obviously, and might require months of maturation before the newly transplanted DSB is working at full throttle again, I assume. <<Not much difference here between this or heavily seeding a new bed eh?>> Is this the correct approach, or do I need not worry and can move all at once? <<I don't recommend moving the entire bed unless the tank will sit fallow until it cycles. Whichever method you choose, consider placing the fish/livestock elsewhere until you can test/confirm the safety/stability of the new setup. EricR>> Cheers, SLC Water flow and the Deep Sand Bed 11/30/2005 Hello Crew <Hi.> I have a small matter, I was hoping you could guide me to put an end to my tank being cloudy from my circulation pump stirring the sand bed. <Okay.> - 120 gal all-glass - 4 in DSB - return manifold schematic used from your WWW forum http://www.wetwebmedia.com/pbh2oret.htm, thanks a million for this thread. - return pump; external HD Blueline A.K.A. pan world magnetic pump model 200PS <Sounds good.> The pump is rated @ 1750PH @ 0 ft head - max ft head pressure 39 ft. I have calculated my plumbing system including the manifold to approx 10 ft head giving me 25 gpm or 1500 gph per the flow chart schematic. I had the system running approx 4 weeks prior to putting any lights to the tank. Now that the lights are up, I have noticed a large amount of sand mixing in the main tank and the water movement is pushing the sand bed out of conformity on the sides of the tank; actually displacing the sand completely as the glass is visible on both bottom sides of the glass tank. Not to mention the tons of microbubbles developing from the water rushing through the refugium / sump to the return pump to the tank. <Seems like the micro-bubble problem could se solved with a few strategically placed baffles.> I know I know, too much water movement. :((, I read many articles including your books and many other readings pushing for min 10 x the main tank volume min. I know that having 100/lbs LR, approx 120/lbs Arag DSB displaces the water volume for sure maybe 90 - 95 gal( I am not an engineer I only have resource material for reference). I have cut down the return pump ball valve almost 2/3. I have 1 - 3/4" loc line flat nozzle agitating the surface water wonderfully and, the other 3/4" round nozzle placed 1" below water level positioned for deeper water circulation around the rocks and tank. No matter what I do the only way to reduce the sand mixing is too almost shut the valve close to almost 1/4 open. This reduces the stirring of the sand completely but, my fear is now I am almost certain I am not even obtaining 3 x water volume circulation. I have invested in the http://secure.microbyte.net/virtual/webaquatics/onlinestore/detail.cfm?ID=OS1142&storeid=1 water flow gauge but it is ordered and I have to wait until I get it to know what my water movement could really be. I was curious, is there any other way to get the tank's sand to a more stable situation with my current water pump configuration? <Well this is one of the downfalls about keeping a DSB in a high flow reef tank. Your exact problem is why many hobbyist prefer to keep the DSB in the sump/refugium area rather than the display. I would rather you not sacrifice the flow rates by closing the valve, I'm a huge proponent of LOTS of water flow. I have had this problem before and it came down to the way my return nozzle was aligned. IT was aligned much to liner and the flow was going directly into the sand bed. I remedied this by creating a much more turbulent flow environment by positioning the returns aimed directly at each other or other obstacles such as rock and glass and other power heads.> Thanks in advance and thanks a million. <I hope this has helped.> Sincerely Maurice Rousseau Jr. <Adam J.>
Juwel Filter Conversion - 11/25/05 Quick question, would it be possible to place a deep sandbed in the internal filter of my Juwel reef tank? <<A DSB can be placed most anywhere...many aquarists prefer placing them in sumps, refugiums, old salt buckets, etc., rather than in the main display.>> Currently it only house the pump heater and a bag of Rowaphos, I should like it be put to good use. <<Add some Chaetomorpha atop the sand bed and some light (RDP), and you'll have a nifty little vegetable refugium.>> Thanks in advance, Will <<Welcome, EricR>> Deep Sand Bed Maintenance - 11/15/2005 If I go with deep sand beds instead of crushed coral how do I clean the sand since you can't gravel vacuum? <Various sand sifters are available. Most important however is strong water flow, regular water changes, not over feeding and effective skimming. Read this link, and follow the links above, http://www.wetwebmedia.com/deepsandbeds.htm . Oh yes, and I forgot to mention earlier that your Tuskfish does need live rock, or at least some suitable hiding spaces. - Josh> Thanks Tony Miracle Mud & DSB...Can I Use Both? - 11/10/05 Hello There <<Hello>> I love your forum, your assistance and guidance is an absolute wonder for the Aqua-ciety. <<We're pleased you find it useful.> I have a quick question, I did read your FAQ's and I did not come across any discussion or topic specifically about using a DSB and Eco-System filtration combined. <<ok>> My setup - 120 gal, 6" aragonite DSB, 100/lbs live rock. I am wondering 1 thing. According to the Eco-System website installation procedures, they specifically instruct the public NOT to use more than 1" sand bed in the main tank along with their filtering system. I have read your pages on DSB's and I agree for a DSB for main tank filtration but I wanted to add the Eco-System refugium below the tank for extra filtration. Do you recommend using a DSB 6" inline with the Eco-System/refugium with their product MM (Miracle Mud)? <<No reason you can't do this. The choice is yours to either follow the Eco-System procedures exactly, or in your case since you already have the DSB in the tank, to use a "modified" version. I don't think employing both methods together is going to "hurt" anything.>> Any insight would greatly be appreciated. Also, I was curious to know if I had to read your comments on the web or would you be so kind to email me directly? <<We do both...we post and reply.>> Thanks in advance and thank you for you wonderful efforts in this hobby. Sincerely, Maurice Rousseau Jr. Adding sand where once there was none - 10/20/2005 Hi! <Hello> Great site! Can I add a DSB to my 40g tank that currently has no substrate at all?<Absolutely!> And is it as simple as pouring it in?<Essentially yes.> My tank is occupied by 3 fish, 2 maroon clowns and a yellow Tang<We all make mistakes> (who will be going to a bigger home soon, I promise).<Yay!> <Sounds like a plan. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/refugdsbfaqs.htm This link will help you out. - Josh> Dan DSB's, depth, gasses 10/20/05 Crew- <Craig> I was doing some follow up on your FAQ's about substrates and DSB's and I noticed that Steve Allen said that DSB's denitrify all the way to nitrogen gas. <Mmm, can...> In my 30 gallon reef's DSB, I have noticed that small pockets of air can be seen through the glass all around the edge of the sand bed. I assume these pockets of air are the end product of denitrification. <This is possible... but other reactions result in gasses produced here as well> If they are, it would be significant to note that the air pockets only occur within the top 1-2" of sand. Would this support those of the opinion that deeper DSB's offer no advantage over more shallow beds? <Mmm... no... the gas may be simply coalescing... floating up to this level> Or is it just as likely that the visible air pockets are the accumulation of nitrogen gas that has risen to the top of the bed after being created in the deeper parts of the bed? <Bingo> Since there is a lack of consensus on the virtue of DSB's, I thought I would pass my observations along. Craig <Appreciate this. It may well be that some studies have been done, published on the make-up of these gas accumulations... not easily found, indexed in the pet-fish literature, but... there are college/university libraries with computer-based search systems... Bob Fenner> Sand in large setup 10/18/05 Crew- <Craig> Quick question. What type of commercially available sand would be acceptable to use for the deeper portion of the DSB? I am not sure I like the projected cost of putting an all aragonite 6" DSB in a 220 gallon tank. Ouch! Is there a cheaper silica free alternative to aragonite that I could likely find in bulk? How many inches of a DSB bed could be of the cheaper variety and how much should be the aragonite? Please let me know of any other details to be aware of for such a proposed DSB. If there are FAQ's that already address this, please point me that way. As always, thank you for your time. <Craig, here is a link to FAQ's concerning your question. http://www.google.com/custom?q=south+down+sand&sa=Google+Search&sitesearch=wetwebmedia.com James (Salty Dog)> Uneven DSB 10/18/05 Hi Adam <James here today> It's Ai Kun again. I have a question on DSB. My tank, which is appx. 5 weeks old was started on a 4 inches deep DSB. After I added my maroon couple two weeks ago, they started 'digging' around and eventually built two small caves under the live rocks. They have dug so deep that I could see the glass at one of their spots. Now I have a very uneven sandbed, a few spots of barely there sandbed and mostly very deep sand (appx 6-7") at all sides of the tank. Would this unevenness pose any problem? I tried to smoothen the sandbed, at least in areas not around their sleeping spots, but they still haven't got tired of 'digging'. I appreciate any advice/suggestions which you may have. <Pretty typical of maroons digging and such. I don't see where this will cause any problems. Read info in this link for more help. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/deepsandbeds.htm James (Salty Dog)> Thank you again. Ai Kun <You're welcome> Question On A Tiered DSB - 10/05/05 First, I'd like to thank you for all of the valuable information I've received from reading through your site. It has been a great help. <<Excellent!>> I am starting a new tank and want to be able to take advantage of the benefits of a DSB but don't want to have the DSB in the display tank. Instead, I want to put the DSB in the sump. <<A refugium would be better, but ok.>> Here is my question. The stand is relatively tall but the length is only 48". After placing the equipment and a refugium, there is not much space for a DSB. <<Mmm...would place it in the refugium.>> I was wondering if it would be possible to tier the DSB such that it would be like a layer cake. The first layer would be 6" of sand covered by 4" of water. Above this layer would be a layer of Plexiglas. On top of the Plexiglas would be another layer of sand and water. On top of this would be a final layer of Plexiglas, sand and water. Circulation of the water across each layer would be provided by small powerheads. Would this work? <<Possibly... An effective DSB can be as simple as a 5-gallon bucket filled with sand and water flowed over it...so your design could work, though it sounds a bit "fiddly". I suspect you're trying to maximize surface area in the DSB, so why not just put it in the refugium?>> I look forward to your response. Michael Mud/DSB/Refugium - 09/30/05 Hello and thanks for the great site and forums. <<Glad you like 'em.>> I could not link to the forums page to post there, so I thought I would send an email. Thanks in advance for your help. <<Email is fine.>> I am setting up a built-in system intended to house a live-rock based reef. My 90G show tank overflows via a custom tank top into a 55G tank converted to a three-chamber sump and returns to the main tank via a pump running at probably 1100gph (Supreme Mag Drive 12). <<Mmm...pretty good pump...but with head height, probably returning a bit less than you think.>> This custom setup was originally intended to house an ecosystem (mud) filter in the central chamber (about 20" x 12"). Over time and having read various apparently conflicting information, I wound up investing in some Aragamud from CaribSea instead of Miracle Mud. Do you know this product, and is it intended to be an alternate to MM or have I been steered in the wrong direction. <<Honestly, no...I'm not a user/familiar with either product. Though I think for the application you describe either will suffice.>> I may be confusing the functions of a DSB with a mud tank with a refugium, and what I really want to do is set it up right in the first place. <<Either will do what you desire. The finer grades of substrate just require less depth to get the job done.>> My goal is to create a system that allows relatively low maintenance - i.e., it provides filtration (denitrification and nutrient export) , it can provide planktonic food, it can reduce the amount of artificially added supplements needed. <<Oh... so you are seeking Utopia! <G> >> So is this ideal system a mud tank with just a thin layer of mud and macroalgae, a DSB with live sand live rock rubble and macroalgae, or something else? <<My preference is a 6" DSB of sugar-fine aragonite with Chaetomorpha algae. Though you could add a layer of "mud" on top of the DSB if you want.>> I have read through many of your excellent forums, but am still confused. Does a mud system accomplish denitrification? <<If deep enough, yes.>> Can a mud system support creatures that could produce the planktonic food a "refugium" can? <<I think a vegetable refugium excels here.>> Does a DSB have to be "partially changed out" like Ecosystems recommends mud systems do? <<Not so much changed out as added to. Aragonite has a half-life of about 18 mos. so you'll need to add more every so often.>> Sorry for the disorganized questions. Your advice is greatly appreciated. I have already invested $$$ in the system, if I have to invest more to set it up right in the first place, I am ok with that. <<<<Very good my friend, starting right is key... EricR>> Creating a Deeper sand Bed! 9/23/05 Hi Bob, <Hey there! Scott F. here tonight!> Thanks for your speedy reply to all my questions in the past. I find this site the most informative tool on the net (really I do)! <Glad to hear that! We certainly enjoy bringing it to you!> Anyways, to get going, I've been looking into making my sandbed a bit deeper. I have a 100g reef with 150lbs of medium grit LS in the 1.0-2.0mm range at about on average, 3 inches deep. I made a mistake in adding 20lbs of oolitic LS to it a couple of months ago, is this harmful? <I don't see any real problems with that.> The reason why I say, "on average 3 inches" is because I have this annoying maroon clown that has been raised without an anemone, she likes to shimmy in the sand causing a major disturbance in the bed. <An unavoidable Clownfish behavior!> I have a BTA that she has been hosting in for several months... but old habits are hard to break. My question is, I would like to achieve a 6" bed. Is my grit too big? <Well, it is a good size if you're looking at a 4"-6" sandbed depth, as this slightly larger grain size does require a greater depth on the average than the finer stuff to foster denitrification.> Also, if I go "deep", should I get rid of the Clown (very beautiful, if she wasn't so pretty she'd be out of there) so that the DSB would remain undisturbed? <A tough call...It is best if the deeper (greater than the top inch or so) layers are left undisturbed. If you really want to have an undisturbed DSB, the Clown may need to be removed.> Right now I'm getting nitrogen gas bubbles in the sediment... should I tamper? <I wouldn't tamper with it, lest you disturb the very processes that you're trying to encourage.> Do what you do best, Missy <Rock on, Missy! I think you're on the right track here! Regards, Scott F.> Deep Sand Bed 9/8/05 Hi Guys, I am in the process of
increasing my sand bed. I am currently up to 4 inches down the front a
bit shallower toward the back but more a less 4 inches through out.
<Sounds good!> Should I add more sand or is this fine my tank
size is around 300 litres. I would rather not add if you
feel I can get away with 4 inches for a DSB as my water has been murky
for a while. Thanks Regards, Ziad
Limbada <4" is fine for function, but you may have
to add more later as it dissolves and compacts. Best
Regards, AdamC.> DSB stirring organisms, yea or nay ? Leave out the macro-fauna 8/27/05 Hola Crew... <Que tal Juan?> Getting down to the last few questions as I make the final decisions on the reef tank I am designing and I just became more confused than normal <G>. <Keep studying> I *was* planning on adding a brittle star and a couple of gobies to a 150 gallon (size keeps changing !) reef tank with a 6" DSB but my research today lead me to some comments by Dr. Ron S. (whose opinion I certainly respect) where he seems to indicate nothing larger than infauna should be allowed into a DSB display tank. My question is; is this a topic being hotly debated currently ? <Mmm, not as far as I'm aware. RonS's opinion is widely shared> Should I flip a coin or add the macro fauna and hope they don't burrow down into the anoxic area of the DSB ?!? <I wouldn't> Thanks again for all the *great* info at WWM ! John Anorexic Anaerobic Bacteria 8/27/05 Dear Crew: <Paul> Six months ago, I started a 75-gallon reef aquarium with an inline 29-gallon refuge sump. My plan for natural nitrate reduction (NNR) was to reduce nitrates to nitrogen gas by cultivating anaerobic bacteria with a deep sand bed (DSB) and live rock. <Okay> During the first 5 months of this aquarium, I performed 25% water changes every week to keep the nitrate levels under control. I want to be able to reduce my need for water changes with NNR but this does not appear to be happening. Last month, I decided to wait 4 weeks before changing the water. While the ammonia and nitrite levels remained near zero, I found that my nitrate levels had climbed to between 25 and 50 ppm per the Salifert Nitrate Test. <High> I can add macroalgae to my refuge sump for nitrate export but I'd rather do that as a last resort. <Why?> Currently, my refugium is only used for water changes and houses an Iwaki MD30 pump, a Jager heater, an Ice Cap fan, and a Remora protein skimmer with carbon filtration. I need your advice on what I must do to achieve NNR with a DSB and LR in the main tank. The DSB is 4" deep on average and contains sugar-fine oolitic Pure Caribbean Aragonite from Petroglyph. While it is full of bubbles when viewed from the side and contains feather dusters, I see no bubbles on the surface of the DSB. Most of the main tank's volume is occupied by live rock covered with purple coralline algae and Pachyclavularia violacea but no observable bubbles. The tank has a generous 10x water flow and 300 watts of DE-halide illumination with fluorescent supplements. Everything else in the tank seems to be thriving: 1 Condylactis anemone (left end of tank) 1 Ritteri anemone (right end of tank) 2 Green Fiji Trees Discosoma mushrooms Rhodactis mushrooms Pachyclavularia violacea Palythoa Assorted button polyps Halimeda algae 1 Maroon Clown 1 Flame Hawkfish 10 Blue Devil Damsels 10 Pajama Cardinals Asteroidea sand-sifting starfish Turbo snails Hermit crab cleanup crew (1) What more must I do to cultivate the anaerobic bacteria needed to reduce nitrates to nitrogen gas? <Perhaps add a couple more inches of substrate... I would> (2) Are there nitrate-reducing anaerobic bacteria cultures that I can buy? <Mmm, unnecessary> (3) Has anyone succeeded in NNR with a DSB and LR in the main tank without macroalgae and frequent water changes? <Yes> My anaerobic bacteria are anorexic! <Heeee! Do consider removing some/all of the LR from the refugium, adding macroalgae and a reverse daylight photoperiod there. Bob Fenner> -Paul. Re: Anorexic Anaerobic Bacteria 8/28/05
Bob, <Paul> I appreciate your reply and wish to pose some
follow-up questions if I may. <Make it so! (Pulls down his
tunic)> You appear to be suggesting that oolitic deep sand beds
(DSB) are more effective in natural nitrate reduction (NNR) than live
rocks (LR). <In general they are> (1) Is this confirmed by
published research? <Mmm, yes... a cursory search of pet-fish
literature... by Bob Goemans, J. Charley Delbeek, Ron Shimek... maybe
Stephen Spotte, Martin Moe will likely show> (2) How do LR's
compare with DSB's in ammonia & nitrite reduction? <In
established settings, about the same... Initially the rock is more
"active", important... per weight, volume... but with time,
the DSB> (3) Does the type of LR matter (Florida versus Fiji)?
<Oh yes... in general, Pacific "rock" is much more
"full of holes" than tropical West Atlantic types... much
more useful in terms of "biological filtration">
Currently, the size of my DSB is restricted only by the large amount of
LR in the aquarium. I can remove live rocks to increase the
size of my DSB. Is this how NNR is accomplished without
algal filtration? <One way> To answer your earlier question, I do
not want to add macroalgae to my refugium because of my bad luck in
ordering it. My order of Gracilaria parvispora from Hawaii
arrived with Aiptasia. My order of Chaetomorpha from the
East Coast arrived with Caulerpa. Unfortunately, there are
no local fish stores in my corner of Colorado. <Mmm, I'd look
around... local fish club/s or the Net... and get some small bit of
"pure" culture from a fellow hobbyist... Or have you tried
Inland Aquatics, Terre Haute, IN? Morgan Lidster has a mighty fine
reputation...> My refugium cannot accommodate another
DSB because I designed it to provide an upward current to suspend
macroalgae. I want to make NNR work with LR and DSB in the
main tank and would appreciate your suggestions. <Can be done...
though am a big/ger fan of DSB's being remoted, outside of
main/display tanks> Thanks very much. I very much
appreciate your forum and I think that is greatly advancing marine
husbandry. <Wowzah!> Best regards, |
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