Re: Tropic Marin Bio Actif Salt   7/25/11
Hi Bob,
I contacted Lou Ekus of Tropic Marin to get some info on their new salt product. See below emails. You may want to post this on WWM dailies for informational purposes.
James
<Thanks. Will post/share. B>
Re: Tropic Marin Bio Actif Salt  
Hi James, here is what our scientists has replied to me after checking on this:
What you are saying is correct. The statement of James Gasta and what you are writing are correct. In BIO-ACTIF sea salt are naturally occurring long chain biopolymers mainly of marine origin which are a kind of dry vodka dosing and which promote specific marine heterotrophic bacteria to help maintain nitrates at very low levels. What is unique in the Tropic Marin organic carbon dosing in comparison to all other kinds of organic carbon dosing is that the biopolymers are mainly of marine origin.
Hope this info helps.
All the best,
Lou Ekus
Director of US Operations
Tropic Marin USA
44 Center Street,
Montague, MA. 01351
www.tropicmarin-usa.com

Salt Mix or Test Kit? (or'¦Where to Find a Calcium Reference Solution?) - 02/11/10
Hello,
<<Hiya Greg>>
I recently bought a box of TM salt mix, tested it for calcium (several times) after bringing it to a Spg of 1.025 and only got a reading of 300ppm.
<<Hmm'¦not the first I have heard of such findings'¦and disturbing to me for such a highly touted; and expensive, salt mix>>
I used a Salifert test kit that isn't due to expire until 2013 and has been stored at room temperature.
<<Very good>>
So I suspect a weak batch of mix.
<<Can/does happen>>
But before I contact the manufacturer of this salt mix I'd like to test the test kit.
<<Always a good course to take>>
So my question is, do you know of a way to make some homemade calcium check solution?
<<I'm sure this is a possibility, but I can't tell you how to do it. You can try searching the net re Randy Holmes-Farley (a very knowledgeable professional chemist, and hobbyist). I know he posted some formulas for home-made reference solutions'¦though I don't recall one for Calcium. You can probably also find some of his writings on Reef Central, archived in the chemistry forum>>
Or do you know of a reliable product?
<<I think so'¦ You could use the calibration fluids available for the Pinpoint Calcium Monitor. These come in 100ppm and 1000ppm flavors'¦are reasonably priced, and should give you some idea as to the efficacy of your test kit>>
Salifert does make a KH check solution but I couldn't find one for calcium.
<<Check out the Pinpoint product just mentioned'¦ You could also use multiple test kits from differing manufacturers and compare results betwixt>>
Thank You,
Greg
<<Happy to share'¦ EricR>>

Mixing Salt/High Ca And Mg Readings 12/4/08 Hi guys, <Hi Jamie> The wealth of this site is astounding! You must be really pleased at offering this kind of quality advice to all. Nice one! <Thank you.> I been having some issues with Tropic Marin Pro Reef salt. After mixing with RO Water, I have tested the water and found very high levels of Calcium (550) and Magnesium (2000). I have been seeing this high level in my Marine Reef system since the beginning, but could not understand why. After testing the RO water before mixing (zero levels), I decided to test the salt mix, which is when I found this seemingly unusual level. This is the second batch of salt I have had this issue with. As a result of these excessive levels, some of the corals/polyps/xenia have started to shrivel, and I have never had any algae growth despite increased lighting etc. I have purchased 2 different brands of test kit to make sure I have not had a bad test batch, but the reading are the same. Have you experience, or even heard of this before? <I have not, Bob may have. I do know that they provide a reliable supply of both calcium and magnesium in this product, but I wouldn't think that much.> I mix the salt over 24hrs to 26 degrees C with a small pump and air stone to around 1.026. I am at a loss of what to do next, except complain to TMC. Thoughts <I've contacted Tropic Marin for their input on this and as soon as I hear back from them, I will respond to this.> <<Ah, good James... Hopefully they will have a substantive reply. Good artificial saltmixes do contain unnaturally high levels/concentrations of both biominerals and alkalinity... by design... to "resist" their deficiency in captive settings. RMF>> Many Thanks, <You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)> Jamie Stokes

Re: Tropic Marin Pro Reef Salt -- Extremely high reading of Calcium and Magnesium during mixing. Any ideas? Hi guys, <Hi Jamie> The wealth of this site is astounding! You must e really pleased at offering this kind of quality advice to all. Nice one! I been having some issues with Tropic Marin Pro Reef salt. After mixing with RO Water I have tested the water and found very high levels of Calcium (550) and Magnesium (2000). I have been seeing this high level in my Marine Reef system since the beginning, but could not understand why. After testing the RO water before mixing (zero levels), I decided to test the salt mix, which is when I found this seemingly unusual level. This is the second batch of salt I have had this issue with. As a result of these excessive levels, some of the corals/polyps/xenia have started to shrivel, and I have never had any algae growth despite increased lighting etc. . I have purchased 2 different brands of test kit to make sure I have not had a bad test batch, but the reading are the same. Have you experience, or even heard of this before? I mix the salt over 24hrs to 26 degrees C with a small pump and air stone to around 1.026. I am at a loss of what to do next, except complain to TMC. Thoughts? <Jamie, I've pasted the email I received from Lou Ekus, Tropic Marin, regarding your concern with Tropic Marin Salt. He asked that you call him if you like. You will find his contact information at the end of the message content. James (Salty Dog)> Many Thanks, <You're welcome.> Jamie Stokes Hi James, Unless there is something going on that is completely out of the range of anything Tropic Marin has ever seen, I can have no explanation for numbers like these. In fact, in RO/DI water, it would be impossible to get our Ca and Mg that high without seeing lots of precipitation. Let this person know that and ask them to contact me directly and I'll help them figure out what is going on. I have serious doubts about these readings even though he states that different test kits were being used. Also, please let him know that he needs to contact Tropic Marin NOT TMC. Thanks All the best, Lou Ekus Director of US Operations Tropic Marin USA

Re Tropic Marin Pro Reef Salt -- Extremely High Reading Of Calcium And Magnesium During Mixing. Any ideas? 2/4/09 <Hi Jamie. Thanks for the cc. Do keep us posted. James (Salty Dog)> Lou, Many Thanks for the email (see below). I have a sample of the salt in question and would like to send it for analysis. Would your facility be best suited for this, or can I send it to a UK branch? Kind Regards, Jamie Stokes -----Original Message----- From: WetWebMedia Crew [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: 18 December 2008 14:38 To: Jamie Stokes Hi guys, <Hi Jamie> The wealth of this site is astounding! You must e really pleased at offering this kind of quality advice to all. Nice one! I been having some issues with Tropic Marin Pro Reef salt. After mixing with RO Water I have tested the water and found very high levels of Calcium (550) and Magnesium (2000). I have been seeing this high level in my Marine Reef system since the beginning, but could not understand why. After testing the RO water before mixing (zero levels), I decided to test the salt mix, which is when I found this seemingly unusual level. This is the second batch of salt I have had this issue with. As a result of these excessive levels, some of the corals/polyps/xenia have started to shrivel, and I have never had any algae growth despite increased lighting etc. . I have purchased 2 different brands of test kit to make sure I have not had a bad test batch, but the reading are the same. Have you experience, or even heard of this before? I mix the salt over 24hrs to 26 degrees C with a small pump and air stone to around 1.026. I am at a loss of what to do next, except complain to TMC. Thoughts? <Jamie, I've pasted the email I received from Lou Ekus, Tropic Marin, regarding your concern with Tropic Marin Salt. He asked that you call him if you like. You will find his contact information at the end of the message content. James (Salty Dog)> Many Thanks, <You're welcome.> Jamie Stokes Hi James, Unless there is something going on that is completely out of the range of anything Tropic Marin has ever seen, I can have no explanation for numbers like these. In fact, in RO/DI water, it would be impossible to get our Ca and Mg that high without seeing lots of precipitation. Let this person know that and ask them to contact me directly and I'll help them figure out what is going on. I have serious doubts about these readings even though he states that different test kits were being used. Also, please let him know that he needs to contact Tropic Marin NOT TMC. Thanks All the best, Lou Ekus Director of US Operations Tropic Marin USA 44 Center Street Montague, MA. 01351 voice: 413-367-0101 fax: 413-367-0144 www.tropicmarin-usa.com

Tunze reef excel salt mix   10/4/08 All, <Matt> Just wanted to tell you what a great site you have. I only have one question that regards synthetic salt mixes, well only one brand. I see that Tunze is now manufacturing a lab quality synthetic mix. They call it "Tunze reef excel". Their claim is that the composition is based on the latest international marine biological findings as well as analyses, and that it contains traces and bio elements in quantities which are identical to those in natural sea water and that it is a further development of hw brand sea salt. Do you have any experience with this salt mix <I do not, but have "heard" only good about it> and would you recommend it. I am a big user of Tropic Marin <I as well> and have used it for over three years with good results, but I am always looking for something better for my fish and corals. Regards Matt <Well... in general I'm an old "fuddy duddy" re changing anything for changes sake... "If it isn't broke...", but up to you. Bob Fenner>

Re: Tunze reef excel salt mix  10/6/08 Mr. Fenner, <Matt> Thanks for your expert advice, I love your site and read it everyday. The reason I was asking about reef excel is that I am getting a little older <Heeee! I'm getting a lot older!> and do not like the ideal of having to clean the glass on a daily base due to the green film algae that I seem to always have with the Tropic Marin salt. I just want to set back and enjoy all my hard work that has gone into my reef set-ups. So if you or know of a good salt mix that compares to Tropic Marin but does not have the film algae issues please let me know. <Don't think it/this is the salt here... likely "just" "recycled" nutrients from foods. I'd take other avenues... bioaccumulation, transport... maybe assiduous use of chemical filtrant/s> I have used IO and s few other salt mixes but seem to always go back to Tropic Marin. <Is a mighty fine, consistent product> I currently have a 90 gallon soft and mushroom coral set up. My other set-up is a 125 gallon LPS/SPS with two Tridacna clams. The 90 gallon unit has two Sunlight Tek T5 (HO) light fixtures each with 4 x 54 watt Giesemann T5 (HO) lamps. The 125 gallon has two Giesemann Reflexx light fixtures, each with 4 x 54 watt lamps. I use Giesemann Powerchrome "Aquablue, midday and one pure actinic lamp in each set-up. <Good fixtures> With this set up I have had orange tube coral (Tubastrea aurea) reproduce into separate colonies in my LPS/SPS set up. I do a 25% water change every Sunday in both set-ups and do not add any additives to the tanks. <Good for you> In fact my corals grow so fast in both set-ups that I have to sell frags back to my LFS. There is so much stuff on the internet these days, some of it true and some of it so very untrue, that one really should seek the advice of a true expert like yourself or the WWM crew before they just decide one day that they want to have a marine set-up and go out and jump into the hobby. By the way in my 125 gallon set up which I have had up and running for five years now, I Have the following list of fish: One (1) Copperband butterfly (I have had it for 3 years) One (1) Blue and Yellow Hippo Tang (I have had it for 2 years) One (1) Sailfin Tang Desjardini (I have had it for 3 years) One (1) Yellowstripe Maroon Clownfish (I have had it for 4-1/2 years) One (1) Court Jester Goby (I have had it for 2 years) One (1) Green Mandarin (I have had it for 4 years) One (1) Flameback (African) Angelfish (I have had it for 3-1/2 years) One (1) Ruby Head Fairy Wrasse (I have had it for 4-1/2 years) One (1) Scott's Fairy Wrasse (I have had for 1 year) In the 90 gallon set-up I have the following fish: One (1) Purple tank (I have it for 1 year) One (1) Spotted Mandarin (I have had it for 1-1/2 years) One (1) Clarkii Clownfish (I have had it for 1 year) One (1) McCosker's Flasher Wrasse (I have had it for 2 years) My feed all my fish the following: H20 life frozen fish food, H20 life Aquarium Seaweed, New life Spectrum pellet fish food, Ocean Nutrition pellet fish food and Nutramar or reef nutrition live Copepods. Thanks For all your hard work. Matt <Ahh, thank you for sharing input re your success. Bob Fenner>

Tropic Marin vs. TM Pro Reef (Make-up?) 2/2/07 <Greeting, Jason. GrahamT with you.> Hoping you can answer a few questions regarding the two Tropic Marin salt products. <Synthetic salt. (I'm surprised you didn't know that... ;) > What are the primary differences between TM standard and TM Pro Reef? <They outline the basic differences on their website, here: http://www.tropic-marin.com/web/english/ > Under what circumstances is it better to use TM Pro Reef? <As stated in their mission-statement, they strive to achieve a higher level of stability when working with calcium reactors, Kalk, etc.> Are there circumstances when it is better to use TM standard? <I use Instant Ocean. A couple of things influence me: Cost. (I like that I can buy a pallet of Instant Ocean boxes with four 50-gal mix bags per box at a decent price.) My research, and personal experience, which I feel are accurately expressed here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_3/cav3i3/Salt_Impressions/Salt_Impressions.htm and here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/tropicmarin.htm - though we all make our own choices. For the first few years in the hobby, I used TM, mainly because it was free, and it had been hyped by our supplier that it was "the best!" For my needs, since I maintain my own supplementation - I don't rely on my mix to keep my water balanced - I only need a basic sea salt. Besides, with the money I save on Instant Ocean, I can afford all manner of buffer, calcium, magnesium, etc. To answer your question, most folks that use supplements don't require a elevated-content mix, neither do they want it.> What additional products (buffers, additives) are generally needed for either or both of these? <TM-Pro claims to have stabilized their chemistry for the use of newer equipment that affects Ph and dKH. If this is true (and I leave that up to you) then you *may* not need to monitor a new batch of water while aging. Honestly, I monitor mix-water anyway, so this is a moot point. In Steve's review, he mentions the diatom problem, which I can confirm in a small way at our service headquarters, but no testing was done to solidify this finding. In the end, you still have to make the decision based on research, and ultimately, experience. In closing, TM-"Standard" is a quality, consistent product. GrahamT> Thanks! Jason

Switching Synthetic Salt Mixes - 08/15/06 Hello. <<Howdy>> I just wanted to know if it is ok to mix different types (brands) of salts. <<I've heard accounts of "some" folks experiencing problems when changing salt mixes but for most I don't think it is an issue...my own experiences included.  I've been pretty much using the same brand (Instant Ocean) for three decades, but I admit to "trying out" a couple other brands in that time>> I have been using Instant Ocean because it is easy to get, not too expensive, and seems to be working ok. <<Indeed...IO is the best "bang for the buck" when it comes to synthetic sea salts, in my opinion>> I recently changed to their Reef Crystals salt which is supposed to be better for corals. <<Mmm, a larger measure of calcium...may or may not be worth the extra expense.  I'm happy to stick with Instant Ocean and let my calcium reactor/Kalkwasser reactor earn their keep>> I recently read a forum on WWM that suggested using Tropic Marin. <<Considered by some to be the "premier" salt brand>> I have never heard of this brand and definitely never seen any for sale. <<How strange...this salt has been available/popular since before I had my first saltwater aquarium (1976).  In fact if memory serves, Tropic Marin and Instant Ocean were about the only "readily available" commercial synthetic salt mixes around back then>> What is your opinion on this brand? <<If money were no option?  ...is what I would be using.  It is a great salt mix...but I find IO gives me good, consistent results for a bit less cash>> I found some reasonably priced and was wondering if you thought I would benefit from switching to this brand. <<Mmm, maybe...  There's much more to this hobby than which salt mix you are using.  Making the change won't hurt anything...and if your maintenance habits/husbandry skills are up to snuff then yes, the salt mix may foster an improvement>> If so, are there any negative effects of mixing different brands of salt? <<Don't try to change all at once...make the switch slowly by introducing the new mix during your regular water change routine>> I have the Reef Crystals in the tank now, and would use the Tropic Marin for future water changes.  Would this be ok? <<Ah...you're ahead of me <grin>.  Yes, this is fine>> Thanks Jon <<Happy to help.  Regards, EricR>> Sea Salt and Calcium Questions Anthony, What brand of salt did you use in your coral propagation facility? <I used to use Instant Ocean primarily. Changes in the company recently have led me back to Tropic Marin with great pleasure> I know that you don't recommend the long-term use of calcium chloride, <absolutely not... it is a temporary supplement at best> and I understand why, but do you think it is appropriate to use it to set your salt mix to desired levels? <nope... not needed. The aspiration of an unrealistic high level of calcium presumes the need for all of that calcium and the precarious water chemistry that goes with it. Corals grow as well or better tapping 20ppm calcium off of a safe 400 ppm level as they do off of an unsafe 500 ppm level. Its still more calcium than most systems will ever come close to using/depleting between water changes and/or proper supplementation. This is a common mistake by aquarists (pushing Calcium unnecessarily high> I have used Instant Ocean and Tropic Marin in the past, which both mix up low in calcium. <not low mate... stable and safe. It is deliberate. rest assured> If you have used Instant Ocean in the past, did you add any magnesium supplements to set the salt mix to higher levels? <nope... large weekly water changes (or replacement of large volumes of water exported with sales from the pools)> I have also read that you recommend the use of Seachem's Reef Calcium in certain situations. <just really for boosting coralline algae the first 4-6 months if desired> Have you had any experience using this product on an aquarium where an ozonizer is employed? If so, is it safe to do so? <hmmm... good question. I've used so much ozone in the past (still do) that I surely must have. I do not recall any problems with it... but suggest you play it safe and take this one up with the techs at Seachem> Thank you for your time, Nick <best regards! Anthony>

Tropic Marin distribution Hi, I am from Caracas, Venezuela. I need information about distributors in Florida, USA. of  "Tropic Marine Salt, 82lbs, Made in Germany" Can you help me Thank you Eduardo Reyes Acuario Sambil <Mmm, well, there are two distributors of Tropic Marin's products in the United States, (they don't sell to consumers.) You can contact them via the company's home site: http://www.tropic-marin.com/web/english/homepage.html Bob Fenner>

Sea Salt recommendations 5/22/03 Anthony what is the best sea salt that money can buy . <Japanese money can buy a mix from Tetra that is hailed as the best in the world, quite expensive... and only sold in Japan as I understand it. For us, I'd be hard pressed to say anything other than Tropic Marin. Yet that is not what I use. I have been quite happy with Instant Ocean and Omega brand sea salts for getting reliability and the most "bang for your buck". As of late, I'm inclined to stray towards Omega... may stay there too. Quality, price, and the fact that they have employed the brilliant chemist and all-around good guy, Tom Frakes, for consultation [original formulator of Instant Ocean... a pioneer]> Hope you are well. RGibson <keeping very busy, my friend... but well :) With hope for you in kind. Anthony>

Sea Salt recommendations - 7/14/03 Hi, I have a 75 gallon fish only aquarium.  Is there a particular sea salt mix that you would recommend?   <Tropic Marin would be my first choice, Omega my second, and Instant Ocean a very well deserved and tried and true (30+ years) third place> Also, do you think it necessary to supplement my water with additional trace elements to make up for those that get depleted? <yes... at least in small amounts unless you do generous weekly water changes. Keep it simple though... trace elements, not just any organic supplements or vitamins necessarily> Thank You, James <best regards, Anthony>

hw MarineMix salt Hi Bob, what do you think about Hw Marinemix, called Hawaiian Marine in USA. Which do you prefer for FOWLR between Hw and Tropic Marin salt? Thank you very much Lorenzo <This is a very good product, on par (IMO/E) with Instant Ocean, but I still rank (by a few percent) Tropic Marin's salt mix as the best available in the U.S. Bob Fenner>

Salt (mix) question Hi Bob, Why do you consider Tropic Marin salt better than others. <Better, more consistent composition, more ready dissolution w/o pH anomalies> I'm using red Sea Salt, what do you think about its composition? <Not a consistent product, particularly in terms of calcium, alkalinity. Bob Fenner> Thanks Lorenzo Salts, Sea salts Hello, I have a FOWLR tank and am deciding on which salt to use. I have heard conflicting facts about different brands (as usual in this marine world), the brands I am looking into buying next is tropic marin or reef crystals. I am currently using Instant Ocean but, want to know how me and my fish will benefit from a better salt? Will the fish actually "be happier" with better salt? I can get a 200 gallon bucket of tropic marine for around $40, which I consider pretty good, so please advise, Thank you. <I strongly prefer Aquarium Systems brand sea salts (Instant Ocean and Reef Crystals). They have been time-tested and set the standard for quality control and consistency. I have reared jellyfish from planulae in it, spawned Tridacnid clams in it and raises thousands of coral commercially in it. Definitely Aquarium Systems for me. Anthony Calfo>

Changing Salt Mixes Dear Bob/Steve/Anthony: I almost feel embarrassed to ask you this question, but I am rather concerned...Here goes: My reef system has been running for almost a year. For the initial set up and all water changes, I have used only one brand of salt mix (Tropic Marin). <Pricey, but about the best you can get> Well, my local dealer has stopped carrying this brand, and I would rather not mail order it due to the prohibitively high cost of shipping for the quantities I need. Obviously, I am interested in switching brands, most likely Instant Ocean. My question is, will there be any type of adverse reaction among my animals if I switch brands of salt mix? the make up water will be identical, SG, frequency of water changes, and other factors will not change, just the brand. <Not likely discernible change in any way... only a few percent difference in quality in my estimation. Good products from Aquarium Systems> I know I'm probably being overly paranoid, but do commercial formulations vary enough to cause such problems when switching brands. If it would be a problem, I'd just assume pay a lot more rather than stress my animals. <Some brands are actually quite different (some appallingly inconsistent and/or poor in make-up), but the major brands are all fine. There are real and phony analyses of these about for those willing to look...> Thanks in advance! Scott F. <I would try/switch over to Reef Crystals (tm) or "regular" Instant Ocean with no worries. Bob Fenner>

Instant Ocean vs. Coral Life I found this special on Instant Ocean salt at my LFS - $50 for 200 gallons. I normally use Coral Life salt ($50 per 150 gallons). In your opinion, is there a difference between the 2? <IMO/E Instant Ocean is a superior product, in composition and consistency> What can I expect if I were to change? <Higher, more stable pH, calcium... resultant incremental better health of livestock, ease of maintenance> What's the best salt you recommend? <Tropic Marin, and Tetra (!), if you live in Japan (only place sold). Bob Fenner> As always, Thanks, Craig

Questions (salt mix brands, spg, sponge diet) Hi Bob !! If you're given a choice of salt mix, which one would you go for: Instant ocean or Red Sea ? <Instant Ocean by a few percent... with Tropic Marin a few points ahead of them...> Secondly, for a fish only tank with live rocks, can I maintain the SG level of 1.017 permanently?  <Actually, not a good idea... more "stressful" than it's worth/gain IMO/E... would re-raise to NSW (near seawater), 1.025 over time> Lastly, my 6 inch queen angel which refuse to eat for 2 weeks, now begins to feed on sponge which I bought specially for her.  <Yes, a major component of Holacanthus of many species in the wild> Is it ok for her to feed only on sponge or will she suffer from malnutrition from consuming sponge only? Please advice. Thanks. <Best to add other foodstuffs to this animals diet. Bob Fenner>

Salt quality Hi There, <Howdy> I have been reading about the importance of the quality of the salt that is used in the aquarium. What brand of salt would be considered as an acceptable brand? The local aquarium shops carry Instant Ocean brand. There are not really any choices. I normally purchase my RO water pre-mixed and the aquarium shop uses the same Instant Ocean they sell to their customers. <Instant Ocean's salt mixes are fine, near the zenith in terms of composition, consistency, ease of use. The few that are slightly (a couple of percent in my estimation) are much more money. There are decidedly some "junk" brands in the industry as well...> Would you happen to know of any online stores who carry an acceptable brand of salt? I want to make sure I am creating the best environment possible. I have already learned a valuable lesson regarding ICH and I want to make sure I am only using the best stuff at this time! <Use the Reef Crystals product by Aquarium Systems to see if you like this any better... or Tropic Marin... both are offered by etailers listed on the www.WetWebMedia.com Links pages> I have lost 2 snails in the past 3 weeks. My water quality appears to be fine. The only thing I can think of that could be causing these mysterious deaths (from reading through the site) is poor salt quality. <Many other possibilities... parasites, senescence, nutritional disorders, predation...> I have heard calcium could be the cause of snail death. I have not tested for calcium. Could this be the cause? Would it be worth testing for it? (I currently only have live rock, snails, crabs, 1 cleaner shrimp, and 2 fish in my 7 month old 58 gallon tank) I did not find anything in the site search that said anything about calcium being a cause of snail death. <Yes, a lack or overabundance of calcium can be problematical. Do read up on the topic on the WWM site, and do test for this material... I doubt if in your case you will need to do much to modify its concentration other than "regular maintenance" (like water changes) though. Read the "Marine Snail FAQs", "Toxic Tank Situations FAQs" over. Bob Fenner> Many Thanks, Christine